In the third and last part of this extensive interview, Duran Kalkan, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the war against Gaza.

The first part of the interview can be read here, the second here

What exactly is the system of capitalist modernity trying to achieve with the war in Gaza and Lebanon? What exactly Iran wants to do? How can the stages of this war develop? Where is Turkey in this war, and how is it reflected in Turkey?

The Iranian leadership was more prudent in the Gaza war. It did not make itself a party to the war. But Hezbollah is different; Hezbollah can be considered a force organized by Iran. The Hamas-Iran relations were different from the Hezbollah-Iran relations. We were saying that Iran would not give the opportunity for such a war in Lebanon, that it would not make itself a party to the war, and if we look now, in its current state, it is trying not to do so; its statements show that. Iran still says that they do not go to war against Israel. But it could have protected Hezbollah. For example, it could have pulled back; they didn’t fight in the Persian Gulf. Why did it drag Hezbollah into the war in Lebanon? Is that what it wanted? Some people say that Iran made a deal and sold out the Hezbollah leadership. Is this the truth, or was it powerless? Because there were many provocations. The Turkish provocations were too many. Was it unable to prevent the provocations, and such a war was entered into? We don’t know this exactly. But what is clear is that after Gaza, Lebanon would be next, then Syria, then Cyprus, and Turkey. This will go on like this.

The free press is reporting about Rêber Apo’s assessments of Israel. On this basis, it reports the construction of the state of Israel. Yes, they are trying to create a Jewish society. They bring people from all over the world; in fact, the state of Israel is the headquarters of the global capital in the Middle East. The Jewish capital is very influential. They want to make it effective on this basis. They want to ensure its security and make it the center of the energy route. Thus, they will create the new Middle East with the Israeli-Arab alliance. Obviously, the Iranians are also in this alliance, and they have compromised. The Iran-Saudi and Iran-Egypt agreements ensured this. They did not openly agree with the US, but Iran’s agreement with Saudi Arabia and Egypt was an agreement with this system.

Turkey is in contradiction with this system, even if it is in NATO. The Israeli war is a war of the system. The US and NATO are behind it. The US has decided to bring in additional military forces and navy; it has increased its military power step by step. When Iraq invaded Kuwait and the Gulf Crisis began, within the first three months the US brought 150 thousand troops to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Arab Emirates, and the Middle East. Now the Gaza war has started; it has brought its entire navy to the Eastern Mediterranean, to the Red Sea. This time it is holding the Middle East from the sea. Back then it held the main places by land, and now it is holding them by sea. Israel is fighting on their behalf.

Also, Israel’s method of warfare is a bit like ISIS. It uses a shocking, effective, striking style. This is what it did in Gaza, but it did it even more against Hezbollah. It did it both by blowing up the pagers and by striking the headquarters from the air and with the support of intelligence. It wants to shock the other side; it wants to shock everyone. It wants to create an atmosphere of ‘Israel cannot be fought, Israel cannot be opposed’. It uses its technical and intelligence power. This is the case in all new wars. Now it has launched a ground operation. Most probably, it will impose the disarmament of Hezbollah, but if not that, it will at least foresee the disarmament of a large area of Lebanon close to the Israeli border, creating a buffer zone. There used to be a UN peacekeeping force in the early 80s, made up of many states. They created a buffer zone between the Palestinians and Israel. Then, when the Palestinian guerrillas withdrew from Lebanon with the 1982 attack, they ended that force. Hezbollah filled all those gaps. Hezbollah filled both the vacuum created by the withdrawal of the peacekeeping force and the vacuum created by the withdrawal of the Palestinian guerrillas.

Now they are going to push them back completely. They will ensure the following: One, there will be no military threat to Israel from Lebanon. Two, there will be no Lebanese threat to trade in the Eastern Mediterranean; on the contrary, Lebanon will adapt and participate. They can create this in a short time. The result against Hezbollah shows that this will happen. Hezbollah suffered a heavy blow. How did it take it? Why was it so unprepared? One cannot know the exact reasons, but we know this: Communication is important in organizational functioning, and they made it extremely technically dependent because it was constantly monitored by intelligence. When the technical connection was severed by blowing up the devices, Hezbollah became unable to manage itself. That’s when intelligence came into play faster. This technical attack and the breakdown of communication are linked to the complete destruction of the administration in a few moves. Hezbollah relied on Iran. In fact, it was supporting Hamas, but in the statements of Hassan Nasrallah, at the beginning, he did not envisage much war with Israel. He was saying things close to Iranian policy. Gradually, in the last period, provocations have increased, and they have reached a confrontational situation. They probably wouldn’t carry out such an attack; diplomacy was in effect, France, etc. were making diplomatic initiatives, and it was as if there was a vacuum; Israel took advantage of the vacuum and struck a blow. It did not last as long as Hamas. The whole leadership was almost eliminated. In fact, Hezbollah controlled an area like Hamas. All of South Lebanon was in the hands of Hezbollah; it is based on the Shiite community; it has a social basis. It was also an example of an underground organization.

Now they are still saying that they will resist the ground operation, but we don’t know how much resistance there will be. There will be a certain resistance, but when the leadership is eliminated, it will be difficult for them to carry out the resistance. If the leadership had not been eliminated, they could have resisted more than Gaza because they have rural areas. If they have developed a strong underground, and Hezbollah’s work was cited as an example for this, they may be able to do some things. Hezbollah also participated in the Syrian war and has experience from there. If Israel attacked Lebanon the way it attacked Gaza, Lebanon would also have a hard time. If it had attacked with an invasion method from the beginning, it would have been hit, and Hezbollah would have resisted more strongly. In fact, Israel’s tactics are very effective. First break the contact, then hit the leadership. No matter how much warrior power or underground preparation, after these two blows, they will not be led, they will not be able to communicate, and there will be no leadership. Like this, it is difficult to resist. Still, one cannot say anything for sure, but the conflict situation in Lebanon may not last as long as Gaza. This is how it can be evaluated.

We cannot say anything about what will follow in Syria. There is mainly Russia’s influence in Syria. One does not know whether the rematch of the Russia-Ukraine war will take place in Syria or whether they will keep Ukraine separate and Syria separate. These are the internal relations of the system, conflicts of interest. Maybe Russia will fight in Ukraine, but in Syria they can compromise on the basis of not going completely outside the system. So far, the US and Russia have carried out operations in Syria in a certain alliance. This was the case until the road conflict. After the war in Ukraine, this situation deteriorated a bit, but that line has not completely broken down either. Both the situation of the Assad regime, the situation in Syria, and Russia’s presence in the Mediterranean are essentially there. If they clash with Russia, it will be difficult, and Turkey is one of the forces that will encourage Russia to clash with the US. If that happens, Turkey will secure itself.

If the US-Russia conflict develops, just as the Turkish Republic survived on the basis of the US-Soviet conflict, now it wants to survive on the basis of the US-Russia conflict. If so, it may survive. But for now, we don’t know for sure, but if they come to an agreement with Russia so that Syria is no longer an obstacle to trade in the Eastern Mediterranean, then Turkey will be next. The surgery in Turkey will be done through Cyprus. It will be connected to the energy route. Turkey will be asked to completely surrender and become a servant. They will leave no room for self-determination. If it does not do so, they will dismember Turkey.

There is the planning of the Treaty of Sevres. Before that, there are the plans of the Brest-Litovsk Agreement. On the basis of them, they will dismember Turkey. Rêber Apo wrote about this fifteen years ago and warned them many times. He said that the things they rely on would tear them apart. They did not listen. AKP-MHP fascism has led Turkey into such a disaster. Rêber Apo also said: “There is no place for the current Turkey in this system. There is no Turkey in the global capitalist hegemony. Therefore, Turkey can only exist with an alternative system. Through a free Kurdistan, a democratic Turkey can emerge. If it turns towards pioneering the creation of democratic confederalism in the Middle East, Turkey can preserve its existence.” This was Rêber Apo’s project. His warnings were on this basis. Instead of taking this into consideration, they wanted to destroy the PKK, to completely intimidate and neutralize Rêber Apo through isolation. They wanted to intimidate the Kurdish people through isolation and attacks on the PKK. In other words, the AKP, Tayyip Erdogan, and Devlet Bahceli gambled, thinking that they could survive by relying a little bit on Russia, by provoking others, and by launching invasion attacks. But on the contrary, they directed them all towards this. They also allowed invasion attacks on Rojava and southern Kurdistan. They did this in order to put Turkey under more control. Therefore, the situation in Syria depends on Russia’s attitude. If there is no war there, the center of the war will be Turkey; contradictions and conflicts will intensify in Turkey. We must see this absolutely clearly. The current Turkish Republic will cease to exist.

It seems that the system is afraid to intervene in Turkey because of the PKK’s presence. Is it because of this fear that they allow the Turkish Republic to cross the borders and carry out invasion attacks?

The Turkish Republic has already abrogated Lausanne when it invaded Idlib, poured troops into Jarablus, and attempted a military invasion of southern Kurdistan and the Medya Defense Zones. According to the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey was not to enter these borders. By launching a military invasion, it has abolished the borders; therefore, it has abolished Lausanne. Now the restructuring is taking place through the energy route. If they solve the problems in Lebanon and Syria, the Arab-Israeli problem will be solved. The way is completely paved for Israeli-Arab reconciliation. The new Middle East will be built accordingly, and most probably Iran should be reconciled with this, because Iran was not in a position to be disintegrated in the First World War; Iran’s integrity was there for the capitalist system to become a global hegemony. The Ottoman Empire was disintegrating; there was still no Turkey. Therefore, most probably the Iranian regime will be kept in the system by exerting pressure on it, but Turkey will be reshaped; the process is heading in that direction. Maybe this process is being delayed, and the main reason for the delay is again the existence of the PKK. They are still afraid of making the necessary interventions in Turkey because of the PKK’s existence.

That is why they allowed and supported the Turkish invasion attacks. They added the KDP to this, and now they have also added Iraq. All of this is actually carried out by the global capitalist system. They are doing it to weaken the PKK. The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe extended the deadline by one year to weaken the PKK. They are afraid of any intervention in Turkey if the PKK is strong. An example of this happened in Russia. There was a vacuum in the system; a handful of Bolshevik organizations took over. Now they are afraid that if they develop a conflict situation in Turkey, the PKK would be too strong and would take over Turkey. They are trying to weaken the PKK and lure it into compromise in Rojava. If they achieve results there, they will spread the war to Turkey. They will develop the operation in Turkey. After that, there is no telling what will happen to Turkey or the Kurds.

The alternative to this is a democratic Turkey and a democratic Middle East based on Kurdish freedom. Rêber Apo developed this formulation. He said, “Free Kurdistan, Democratic Middle East.” Then he created the “Democratic Middle East Confederalism.” It is the Democratic Nation and Democratic Confederalism projects that could prevent the attacks, conflict of interests, and fragmentation of the Middle East through capitalist modernity and could bring the Middle East to a position where free, democratic, and brotherly peoples live together. They did not allow Rêber Apo to implement this. They forced Turkey to war with Rêber Apo and the PKK. The ‘cokturme plani’ is not only the plan of the AKP-MHP; it is the plan of the forces carrying out the Kurdish genocide. It is necessary to see it this way. The situation is very critical. When they launched attacks on Rêber Apo and the movement, yes, we carried out a resistance at some level, but we could not develop an activity to break all this. This could have been prevented if the AKP-MHP administration had been overthrown earlier, if the awareness and organization of democratic modernity had spread more in the Middle East. But this was not achieved. Tayyip Erdogan and Devlet Bahceli are still in power and continue their projects. This, too, is supposedly in opposition to the system, but it is part of the system. It is not outside the system, although it has relations with Russia and some other powers. Therefore, there is something effective that the global capitalist powers are developing through Israel in order to realize their plans. After Lebanon, the US will step in during the Cyprus process; the US made a security agreement with southern Cyprus; Israel also made an agreement; they held joint military exercises; they developed some ports for trade. The US and some powers will then directly intervene.

It can be seen that we are in a very important process. So is the situation of the war in Kurdistan. So is the expansion of the Third World War in the Eastern Mediterranean. The developments in Lebanon have revealed this situation. There are those who wonder whether this will spread to Iran; it seems very difficult and rather unlikely. We thought that it would not be like this in Lebanon, but it did not happen as we thought. Because provocations can lead to different situations. We should not say that it will happen one hundred percent, but the tendency in Iran is to reconcile with the system and stay out of the war. But we have to take into account the possibility of war; we have to take into account the possibility of staying out of war. We have to consider the situation in Syria. We should try to develop our struggle more strongly for what should happen if it is Turkey’s turn.

Considering the situation you have assessed in detail, what is the role of the Kurdish freedom movement? What do you think has to be done?

So far we have not been able to implement our line effectively, sufficiently, and successfully. They wanted to annihilate us; yes, we are preventing annihilation, but we have not been able to develop an activity that would disrupt the plans of the other side. Now they want to weaken us and make us like Hezbollah and Hamas and dominate Kurdistan completely. If we frustrate this, what Rêber Apo calls ‘intermediate solutions’ may come to the agenda. The situation in Rojava may generalize a bit. We must be open and ready for that too. In this sense, we need to handle the practice in North and East Syria better and evaluate it more accurately. We need to carry it out in a more planned and effective manner. It is necessary not to become too dependent, but we should not think that we will be left alone there with only our own power, with no one else, without seeing our own real situation. Either you spread it around; in Kurdistan, in other parts of the Middle East, you bring out the power and democracy of the peoples and rely on it, or you will be in reconciliation. Otherwise, there is no other way to survive. In this sense, approaches that are too submissive are also wrong; approaches that are shortcuts and detached from reality are also wrong. We must not fall into these situations. Therefore, we must see this reality and accordingly be in a position to carry out more planned, more organized reconciliation and alliances better. We must not be destructive; we must not eliminate them; that is also wrong.

By making the struggle more effective as much as possible and spreading more in the region and the world on the basis of the global freedom campaign, it will serve us to some extent to develop the alternative of democratic modernity against the global capitalist modernity system’s total domination of itself. There are possibilities and opportunities for this, but it is necessary to assess correctly, to be organized, and to be able to fight more effectively with a creative style. When we realize this, we will definitely succeed. The conspiracy is a process intertwined with the world war. It can be handled and evaluated differently. In order to successfully wage the struggle against the conspiracy and to understand today’s events, it is necessary to correctly understand the reality of the world war in which the conspiracy is intertwined.

This means that success can be achieved through struggle; many plans of the conspiracy were foiled. It has been defeated many times. Now the global freedom campaign is the finale of this. It aims to achieve the physical freedom of Rêber Apo by breaking the Imrali torture system. This can be realized. The lessons of 26 years of struggle show us this. The fact that 26 years of struggle have repeatedly broken the attack plans of the international conspiracy proves the fact that the conspiracy can be completely shattered and destroyed. Therefore, if the struggle is carried out more accurately and effectively, results can be achieved, and such a stage has been reached. This needs to be well understood. We must be more faithful and hopeful in the struggle. We must act more planned and organized. We must act more creatively. We must be more courageous and sacrificial. We have really reached the stage of achieving results, and we must be in an action that can realize this, consciously seeing that results can be achieved and believing in it.