An interview with Besê Hozat, KCK co-Chair, on Medya Haber about the latest developments in Kurdistan, the Middle East and the world, including the international attempts to justify Abdullah Öcalan´s prolonged imprisonment, the importance of the guerrilla´s resistance in South Kurdistan against Turkey´s genocide policy, the KDP´s collaboration with Turkey, the significance of the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ for the upcoming Turkish elections, the legitimate goals of the uprising in East Kurdistan and Iran, the election of the new Iraqi President and Turkey´s alliance with al-Nusra against the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria:

The isolation of the Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan continues. The CPT [European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment] has recently made a statement regarding its last visit to the Turkish prison island Imrali. At the same time, the Kurdish people and their friends around the world continue to take a clear stance against the isolation. How do you evaluate the isolation and the international protests against it?

First of all, I would like to salute the resistance of Leader Apo [Abdullah Öcalan]. He has been putting up great resistance for 24 years. A comprehensive war is being waged against Leader Apo. Imrali is a torture system. This isolation is not only limited to the last 5 or 6 years. There has been a terrible system of isolation, oppression and torture in Imrali for 24 years. The CPT, the EU, the Council of Europe and the ECHR [European Court of Human Rights] are also involved in this. They have been pursuing a hypocritical policy from the beginning and, accordingly, know everything that is going on in Imrali. Therefore, they themselves are responsible for Imrali. Imrali is an international system. The USA, England and Germany are the ones who established it. Western countries in general are responsible for this system. The US, Britain and Mossad captured our Leadership [Abdullah Öcalan] and handed him over to Turkey, which was given the role of a guardian. Turkey is implementing a torture system in Imrali. With the Imrali system, the whole Kurdish society and the society of Turkey are subjected to a system of torture and oppression.

What is happening in Imrali is complete fascism. Today, this has spread all over Kurdistan, Turkey and the Middle East. All international powers know what is going on in Imrali. Recently, the CPT visited Imrali and said that they would release a report in 6 months. Why will you only publish your report in 6 months? Then, after another 6 months, they will ask for explanations from Turkey. That makes one year in total. This shows that they are gradually extending this period. They have been talking about disciplinary penalties for more than 2 years and have not allowed lawyers and family members to go to Imrali. Disciplinary penalties are a very deliberate policy in order not to have to apply international laws. This policy is being implemented with the knowledge and approval of international powers. Therefore, we are clearly faced with an international policy.

Our people have been carrying out very strong protests against this policy for many years now. The physical freedom of Leader Apo is on the agenda of all the peoples of the world today. His freedom has thus become a major demand. These efforts must continue even stronger. If we do not put serious pressure on the international powers, if we do not include all our international friends, the democratic public, and all non-governmental organizations and if we do not take a serious stance, their hypocritical policy will continue. Based on this policy, Turkey will then be able to continue to wage its genocidal war on the Kurds. Imrali is the center of this war. This hypocritical policy of the West also means giving approval to the genocide policy against the Kurds. The policy implemented against the Leadership is not independent from the genocide policy against the Kurds. It starts in Imrali and then spreads to all of Kurdistan and the whole society. Leader Apo is the leader of a people and millions accept him as the representative of their will. Not only Kurds, but also the democratic society of Turkey, the peoples of the Middle East and the women recognize Leader Apo as their leader.

We need to fight fiercely against the isolation policy. The Gemlik march was important. Lawyers in the Middle East and Europe recently made statements and requested to visit Imrali. These are important developments and we need to carry out these kinds of actions even more. The recent concert in Italy was also important. Everyone needs to stand up for Leader Apo because he is being held in prison due to his insistence on human values. His struggle increases the consciousness of the peoples, strengthens their willpower and opens the eyes of humanity. That is why they are afraid of the thoughts of Leader Apo. They are afraid of a single word of him reaching the outside and having an impact on society. Because they know that every word of Leader Apo causes great enlightenment, awakening, resurrection and resistance in society. And this threatens their power system and modernity. That is why they have all joined hands and are applying this system of oppression and torture in Imrali.

Therefore, we need to increase the struggle for the physical freedom of Leader Apo. The Council of Europe is also just pretending. For the ‘Right to Hope’ they gave Turkey the following options: They said that after 24 to 25 years, if Abdullah Öcalan shows good behavior, the ´Right to Hope´ may be applied, but if not, Turkey may not apply it. That is why Turkey has been deliberately imposing disciplinary penalties for more than two years. Thus, they want to show that he does not show good behavior. With these disciplinary penalties they are trying to create a legitimate ground for not applying the ‘Right to Hope’ to Leader Apo. This is the kind of dirty policy they are mutually pursuing.

Just as our people have defeated this concept until now, they can defeat it again through our struggle. Thus, they can ensure the physical freedom of Leader Apo and completely crush the plan to carry out a genocide against the Kurds. This can only happen through our struggle. We cannot physically liberate Leader Apo or defeat the Kurdish genocide plan by creating empty expectations. We will defeat all this only through our struggle. That is why we must wage a strong struggle for the physical freedom of Leader Apo in North Kurdistan, Turkey, the other parts of Kurdistan and everywhere outside of the country.

For more than two years now, a strong struggle has been waged in the context of the campaign ‘Dem dema azadiyê ye’ [‘Time for Freedom is Now’]. The guerrilla constitutes the most fundamental pillar of this struggle. There is also a significant resistance of our people, but it is insufficient, often gets interrupted, turns into a routine and gets normalized after a certain period of time. It should not be like this. In the current phase, the fascist Turkish state is struggling for its existence. And for the Kurdish people this phase also has a very historical meaning. Because the old balances in the region have collapsed. The political balances of the 21st century have collapsed and the systems have disintegrated. The whole system is currently being redesigned. In the wake of the 3rd World War, the balances of the 21st century are being reshaped in the region today. The Turkish state conducts a total war and pursues a genocide policy to prevent the Kurds from gaining a political status in the 21st century. We are faced with a policy of genocide in all its physical, cultural, ecological and economic aspects. If we do not wage a total resistance against this, we won´t live up to the current phase. Therefore, the current attitude needs to be overcome.

For decades, Leader Apo has been waging a great struggle for the democratization of Turkey. And now, he is paying the price for it. One of the main reasons why he is in Imrali is his struggle to democratize Turkey. The Turkish rulers do not want Turkey to be democratized and free. They do not want a democratic republic, a democratic state. They do not want the Kurdish question to be solved on a democratic basis. Because they keep themselves in power by pitting the peoples against each other, by clashing, by creating enemies and by developing racist nationalism on the basis of the unsolved Kurdish question.

The years-long struggle of the Leadership and the Kurdish people has brought about very serious developments in Turkey. This has given courage, willpower and self-confidence to the forces of democracy. The Leadership has been waging this struggle in Imrali for 24 years. His struggle in Imrali is a struggle for the democratization of Turkey, a struggle for freedom. It is a resistance for democracy. Neither AKP-MHP fascism nor the bourgeois opposition want this. They have been keeping themselves in power in Turkey for years with the help of anti-democratic laws. That is why everyone must stand up for Leader Apo. Because he is fighting for the freedom of everyone. The society in Turkey, the democratic forces, intellectuals, artists and politicians must stand up for Leader Apo in the strongest way possible. Every aspect of Leader Apo’s struggle is justified and legitimate. Everyone needs to strongly participate in this struggle.

The HPG Press Center [Hêzên Parastina Gel – People´s Defense Forces] recently announced the 6-month balance sheet of the war in South Kurdistan [North Iraq]. One day later, the identities of 17 guerrilla fighters killed by chemical weapons and images showing the brutality of the war and the many crimes against humanity were made public. The guerrilla´s resistance also has a strong impact on society. In this sense, how do you evaluate the resistance of the guerrilla and the protests of society?

A great struggle has been continuing for six months now. We are talking about a brutal war. Fascist Turkey does not recognize any international laws. The Turkish state is a member of the Council of Europe and of the UN. It has signed many international conventions which clearly prohibit the use of chemical weapons. But despite this, the Turkish state is carrying out all kinds of actions that are not in line with the laws of war. Neither the Council of Europe, nor the UN, the EU or the US, the so-called apostle of democracy, have said anything about this. The Turkish state is waging an illegal and inhumane war, committing crimes against humanity. But no one speaks out. This attitude is extremely hypocritical, based on economic and political interests. I would like to condemn the attitude of all these powers.

In front of the eyes of the whole world, the children of the Kurdish people are being martyred group by group with chemical gases. But all these powers simply remain silent. There is so much data, so much proof. There are so many images, so many documents regarding the characteristics of each gas. This issue has also been taken to the OPCW. Supposedly, the OPCW is an international organization that fights against chemical weapons. But it has not taken any stance regarding this issue. Everyone simply watches the genocide of the Kurds, keeps silent and – in a way – thus participates in it. Therefore, these powers themselves are committing crimes against humanity. Our people need to cause an uproar because of this situation. I would therefore also like to criticize the attitude of our people. These young people who have been martyred with chemical gases, tactical nuclear weapons and other banned weapons are the children of our people. These are the most precious of their children. If they had preferred a simple life, they would not have come to fight under these difficult conditions.

These sons and daughters of our people are fighting for the freedom of the people, for their political status, for a free Kurdistan, for all peoples to live together on a free and democratic basis. They are putting their lives on the line. But still there is no serious social reaction. It is almost as if everyone is in the position of a spectator. People seem to be thinking that the guerrilla and the Turkish state are fighting and that the guerrilla will eventually just win this war which is why they can just wait for the outcome to become clear and live a comfortable life. This is not right. This is an extremely shameful situation. When I say this, I am not saying that our people do not struggle, do not resist and do not pay a high price. Of course, saying such things would be a great injustice. Our struggle has not come so far only based on the guerrilla resistance but through the glorious resistance, struggle and the heavy prices paid by the people. After all, the martyrdom of their children, the fact that tens of thousands of them are in this struggle is also a result of the struggle of the people. Our people have raised these daughters and sons. A strong patriotic tradition and stance exists among the Kurds and their popular resistance has continued for years. But the stage the struggle has reached today is different. Now the struggle is at its peak. The Kurdish question has now reached its final stage.

This problem can only be solved on a democratic basis. The Kurdish people will definitely achieve their political status in the 21st century. The opposite scenario would mean the continuation of the genocide policy that dates back hundreds of years. In this case, there will be no Kurds left. They will annihilate the Kurds, and the ones who survive will be condemned to an animal-like life. This is where the danger lies. The Turkish state says that they will finish this job in the 21st century, namely until October 29, 2023. Every day, that scoundrel Soylu gives a new date with regards to this. This is the policy of the Turkish state. Until the 100th anniversary of the Republic of Turkey and the Treaty of Lausanne, they want to redesign the fascist Turkish nation system by eliminating the PKK and carrying out a genocide against the Kurdish people. They want to announce the success of their policy on October 29, 2023. That is why this issue is so important. But the resistance of society does not develop accordingly. It does not turn into total resistance.

The people in Rojava are constantly on their feet, just like our people in Europe. There is a certain level of resistance in North Kurdistan and in East Kurdistan [North-West Iran]. In South Kurdistan the people are extremely angry about the genocidal policy, but their anger does not turn into social resistance. Once it does, this will put great pressure on the international states that approve of this genocide. This will expose the Turkish state much more and oust the AKP-MHP from power. The AKP-MHP regime is already in the process of collapsing. This regime sustains itself with the help of a racist-nationalist mob. The guerrilla resistance against the regime is admirable and flawless. There is no other way to describe it. The enemy has bombarded the guerrilla thousands of times with tanks and war planes. Which other force is able to withstand such attacks? If a state had been under such a comprehensive attack, its lifespan would have only been one week. It would have simply ceased to exist. When IS attacked, Iraq fell apart, just like Syria did. The Turkish state is using all kinds of NATO technology and banned weapons. Despite this, the guerrilla have been waging a glorious resistance for more than 6 months. Therefore, all people – no matter if young or old – must rise up against this brutality.

Another dimension of these attacks is the stance of the collaborators and traitors. If it were not for the attitude, policy and practice of the collaborators and traitors that legitimize the genocidal attacks of the Turkish state, it would not dare to do what it is doing. It would not be able to use chemical weapons, tactical nuclear weapons and thermobaric bombs against the guerrilla. The policy of the collaborators and traitors offers every kind of opportunity for the Turkish state. With its statements and speeches, it legitimizes the actions of the Turkish state politically. They say that the Turkish state, the AKP-MHP, only have a problem with the PKK, not with the Kurds. But we should ask the Kurds who the PKK is: The PKK are the children of this people. They give their lives for the freedom of this people, for its political status, for the freedom of Kurdistan and they fight for humanity.

So what are you doing, KDP? You are collaborating. You are betraying. And you are selling the resources of the Kurdish people to the fascist, racist Turkish state. You sell them to the AKP-MHP. You support the murder of the most distinguished children of the Kurds. And you legitimize this massacre internationally. One of the reasons why international powers are so silent about these attacks is because of the KDP’s stance. The KDP legitimizes these attacks. On the other hand, the KDP and the Turkish state are already acting together on the ground. The KDP builds roads and bases, provides logistics, all kinds of ammunition and other supplies, transports soldiers, treats the wounded, transports them and gives them clothes. This is how Turkish soldiers are able to enter areas that they would normally not be able to enter. The KDP exploits the sensitivity of our movement in order to prevent a civil war. It exploits this sensitivity and does all kinds of dirty things. Therefore, the attitude of the KDP has made it a part of these genocide attacks. With regard to this issue, there needs to be very strong protests by the public in Kurdistan. And there have been protests, but they are weak.

The KDP said that they seized a lot of gas masks in Duhok. Let’s say those masks were meant to go to the guerrilla. Why are you confiscating them? If those masks had been in the hands of the guerrilla fighters, maybe there wouldn’t have been so many martyrs. Delegations want to go to the areas where these weapons are used, but they are not allowed to. A delegation recently came and there was a serious international reaction. The KDP then realized that they were being exposed, and in order to prevent their exposure, they only allowed the delegation to go to Amediyê. The delegation wanted to go to the battlefield, to the area where chemical weapons were used, but they were not allowed to go. Consequently, it had to return to Sulaymaniyah. The delegation collected a lot of data. But the KDP tries to prevent them from publishing their data. Who knows what the KDP does and says in the diplomatic arena. The KDP is very active diplomatically.

What does the KDP gain from all this?

The KDP fills its pockets even more. Thus, the KDP and the Barzani family maintain their power, pile up more and more money and increase their capital. We have said this before: they have made many investments in the Gulf countries, the USA and Turkey. They sell the resources of Kurdistan and the people. The Barzani family is trying to strengthen its power, increase its capital and remain on its feet. They have turned South Kurdistan into a province of Turkey and seek to become its governor.

The anniversary of Şehit [martyr] Bêrîtan’s martyrdom is approaching. Today, the guerrilla fighting in Zap, Avaşîn and Metîna is led by YJA-Star guerrilla fighters whose resistance is based on the resistance tradition of martyr Bêrîtan. Which connection do you see between this anniversary and today´s resistance of the guerrilla against Turkish fascism?

First of all, I would like to greet with respect and love all the comrades who are resisting. They are waging a very honorable struggle on behalf of the Kurdish people, the people of the Middle East and all of humanity. I would like to congratulate all commanders and fighters of the YJA-Star and HPG from the bottom of my heart. I would also like to commemorate with respect and gratitude our 17 precious comrades [recently announced as martyrs as a result of chemical weapons attacks]. I would like to commemorate with great respect, love and gratitude all the friends who have been martyred in the course of the resistance in Zap, Metîna, Avaşîn and all the Medya Defense Zones during the last 6 months. The war still continues and the AKP-MHP will keep it going even longer. Because they need this war.

This month is the month of the International Conspiracy and the anniversary of heval [Kurdish for ´friend´ or ´comrade´] Bêrîtan’s martyrdom. On October 25, 1992, she was martyred while resisting the genocidal war waged by the Turkish state and the KDP against the guerrilla. Her story is well known by our people. After getting wounded, she threw herself off a cliff in order not to be captured by the collaborating and treacherous KDP and not to surrender. This great action has become a tradition of resistance. The foundation of the women´s army resulted from this. The women’s army´s character and identity originate from Bêrîtan’s resistance. Comrade Bêrîtan’s stance and attitude against surrender and betrayal have formed the character and identity of the women’s army.

Today, the guerrilla are resisting in a very honorable way in Zap, Avaşîn, Metîna and all over Kurdistan. This is due to the legacy of heval Bêrîtan. Today´s resistance is based on Bêrîtan’s way of resistance. Now, just like in ’92, both the fascist Turkish state and the forces of collaboration and treason are fighting against us. The guerrilla still have the same attitude of resistance like heval Bêrîtan. It does not surrender but takes an honorable stance. This is nothing that can just be taken for granted. The resistance is based on a great consciousness, will and passion for freedom. Heval Bêrîtan was also like this. Her love and passion for freedom have made this struggle grow and brought it to this day. On this occasion, I would like to commemorate heval Bêrîtan with great respect, love and gratitude. Based on her way of resistance, this struggle will definitely succeed.

In North Kurdistan [East Turkey] and Turkey, a real election atmosphere can already be felt. The election process has somewhat started, even if people might not yet call it that. Everyone has begun to work towards the elections. At the same time, the Turkish government is putting huge pressure on the Kurds and the opposition in order to tie their hands. As an alternative to this, the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ was formed under the leadership of the HDP. How do you evaluate the state´s pressure and the developments on the side of the resisting forces?

The upcoming elections are one of the most important elections in Turkey’s history. The government will do everything to win them because its existence depends on this. If the fascist government falls, it will be put on trial for all its crimes against humanity, corruption and theft. In this case, it is very likely that Erdoğan won´t be able to stay in Turkey. If Putin remains in power, Erdoğan may take refuge with him. It is not absolutely clear where he will be able to go. He may also seek refuge with NATO. Therefore, there is nothing Erdoğan will not do inside and outside of Turkey to win the election. He will continue to build all kinds of dirty relations. He keeps himself in power with the help of the war and the Kurdish genocide. And he will intensify this genocidal war even more. He will increase the war in the Medya Defense Zones. He has also been preparing for a new war in Rojava for a long time. He will wage war everywhere.

Turkey is faced with brutal fascism, oppression and violence. Workers and laborers are being massacred every day. The recent massacre in Bartın was just one of a series of massacres carried out by the government. There is the Soma massacre in which 301 workers lost their lives. Every day and everywhere in Turkey, two, three or whole groups of workers loose their lives. And then there are the genocidal attacks against the Kurds. A horrible economic-ecological destruction is taking place in the society of Turkey and twice as much in Kurdistan. A genocide is being carried out in Kurdistan, but there is also social destruction happening in Turkey. Women are also faced with huge attacks. In short, this government has destroyed Turkey as a whole. It has consumed, stolen, extorted, usurped and destroyed all of Turkey’s resources and values. It has also destroyed the 100-year-old Kemalist system. The Kemalist state as we know it no longer exists. Now the government wants to build a society according to its own attitude and paradigm. It wants to do so on the basis of the aforementioned destruction and wants to structure the nation-state accordingly. The government wants to do this on the basis of the Kurdish genocide and the destruction of society, women and nature in Turkey. It will seek to build a fascist nation-state system on the basis of all this destruction.

The government is increasingly losing the support of the voters. The Kurds have already broken away from the AKP. Except for a group of collaborators and traitors, no one has stayed with the AKP. There is also a serious rate of undecided voters. The government has not only caused its own collapse but has led Turkey into a process of destruction. And there is also the bourgeois opposition, which is simply another version of the current government. They call themselves the ´Table of Six´. But they do not have a proper solution plan or policy for Turkey’s problems, especially for the Kurdish question. The reason for this is that they lack a democratic attitude, a democratic mentality. That is why they are unable to develop a democratic policy. Until now, they have not made a single serious statement on the Kurdish question. They have not presented any serious programs or policies. How will Turkey be democratized if the Kurdish question is not solved? This is simply impossible.

The way to democracy in Turkey is only possible on the basis of the solution of the Kurdish question. So far, the ´Table of Six´ has not been able to put forward a single policy because it pursues the classic policy of the state. That’s why the opposition cannot put forward a truly different position from the government with regards to the Kurdish question. Since the government knows this, it constantly uses this issue to attack the ´Table of Six´. Thus, the government is trying to shape the opposition according to its own attitude. It is trying to shape the CHP in this way. The IYI Party is already closer to the government. The AKP-MHP are also trying to shape other Islamic parties – Saadet, Gelecek and Deva – on this basis. Consequently, the ´Table of Six´ has become part of a nationalist competition with the government. This constitutes a serious handicap.

Therefore, the bourgeois opposition cannot present a policy and a practice that could give confidence to the Kurds and the democratic sections of Turkey´s society. The solution lies neither in the government, nor can it be expected from the current bourgeois opposition. From this point of view, the solution to the Kurdish question in Turkey and the solution to the country´s problems is the concept of the Democratic Nation, the paradigm of Leader Apo and the democratic politics based on it. The solution lies in the forces that conduct democratic politics. It is the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ that is waging a struggle exactly on this basis. This alliance constitutes the only solution to the problems. In this respect, the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance’ needs to turn itself into the main force of solution in Turkey without relying on anyone else. It needs to develop the strength to govern the country. It needs to be able to turn itself into an organization and a force of struggle that will be involved in the government of Turkey. The alliance definitely has this potential.

The potential of the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ in Turkey is 60 percent or 70 percent of the votes. If it can effectively strengthen its relations with society, make itself known to the people and organize and mobilize the society on this basis, it will become the strongest force. The values defended by it are very clear. They are the values defended by the society of Turkey: democracy, freedom, justice and democratic law. These are the issues that the whole society deeply cares about and that the HDP defends: the democratic unity of the peoples, living together based on friendship, democracy and equality and a democratic solution to the Kurdish question. These are the values, principles and needs that the Kurdish people represent and demand, just like the peoples of Turkey. In this respect, the growth potential of the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ is very high. Narrow and superficial approaches need to be overcome. This alliance should not only be a narrow election alliance, but an alliance of struggle.

The ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ needs to be an alliance that builds a Turkey based on a democratic and libertarian attitude. It must be able to explain itself to the whole society of Turkey and embrace all sections of society. It needs to meet people everywhere and explain its own ideas. It needs to be able to explain itself to the Alevis, to the democratic conservative Muslims, to the Islamic sections of society, to all non-Muslim sections – e.g. Christians and Jews – and to all other communities. All these groups constitute the basis of the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´. Women and youth have already become the main forces and the pioneers of this alliance. The Turkish Women’s Movement and the Kurdish Women’s Movement are the main forces of the alliance. They are currently the strongest women’s movement in the region and in the world and consequently also pioneers in the struggle for democracy.

This alliance for democracy and freedom should not only be limited to 5 or 6 parties. It needs to be transformed into a general alliance of all sections of society. The ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ recently published a road map with regards to this issue. I consider this road map as very important. They put forward a manifesto, but it should not remain on paper alone. It must be put into action. In other words, they must work very hard, house by house, street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood person by person, to organize and take action. This struggle is no longer a matter of rhetoric. If the people don´t take to the streets, if a serious social force of opposition and resistance does not emerge and if the social opposition does not fill the streets, this struggle cannot achieve results and they won´t be able to win the elections. A strong social opposition is the way to win the elections: tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people filling the streets. The ´Table of Six´ has been serving the interests of this fascist government for years. They are doing everything they can to prevent society from taking to the streets. It is the ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ that will change this.

This society has the power to overthrow the fascist government. Society is very angry. A strong democratic opposition force has now emerged. And society is sick and tired of all the theft, corruption, massacres, genocide, fascism, injustice and lawlessness of this government. The problem is one of leadership. If society is led correctly and effectively, this government will definitely not remain in power. Therefore, it is necessary to wage a strong struggle before the elections. It is also necessary to strengthen the protests in this context. The AKP-MHP will risk everything, including civil war, in order not to lose its power. For years, it has organized and trained many contras and gangs. All the economic means of the state are in the hands of this government. That’s why it is willing to do everything it can to remain in power. The only way to take the power away from them is by struggling on the streets. The ´Labor and Freedom Alliance´ won´t be able to overthrow this government just by talking and by saying radical things.