In the third part of this interview, Cemil Bayik, co-chair of the KCK Executive Council, said that "we have much greater opportunities than before. But no one should be complacent here. "

The first part of this interview can be read here and the second here.

The Third World War is raging in the Middle East, and the center of this war is Kurdistan. In the First World War, the Sykes-Picot Treaty was signed, as a result of which Kurdistan was divided into four parts and the Middle East was shattered. Today, especially after the recent developments in Syria, the Sykes-Picot Treaty is no longer valid. There was the war against Hamas in Palestine, then the Hezbollah war in Lebanon, and finally the collapse of the Baath regime in Syria. You also mentioned the Abraham Accords. At the moment it seems that the war is heading over Iraq towards Iran. And both the forces of capitalist modernity and regional powers such as the Turkish state are deeply involved in this. How do you assess the situation of both Iran and Iraq?

With the First World War, the Middle East was reorganized, Kurdistan was divided into pieces, and the Arabs were torn into pieces. A new world system had been established. The forces that chose the powers in the Middle East at that time are now eliminating them one by one. They are the ones who established it in the past, and they are the ones who are abolishing it today. Until the Third World War, these powers in the Middle East were still serving the capitalist powers to a certain extent, but they have now outlived themselves. Now they are obstacles both to capitalist modernity and to the peoples of the Middle East. That is why they are removing the regimes. The war in the Middle East is between the capitalist modernity system and the status quo nation states. In this war, the status quo system of the nation state is being liquidated. The system of capitalist modernity is gradually advancing in the Middle East. The destruction of Syria means the destruction of the Middle East. The system established in the First World War is collapsing. This is why a fundamental change is taking place in the Middle East today.

The destruction of Syria prepares the grounds for the destruction of other states. Because Syria was taken as a basis when the Middle East was shaped in the first place. First the British entered Syria, then an alliance was made with France, which took Britain’s place. At that time, the borders between Arab states were not yet clear. The States had not been established yet. They started with Syria, then Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq were established. Syria is at the foundation of these states. Syria was the basis of the balance in the Middle East. That’s why they said there would be no peace without Syria. Because the disintegration and shaping were done through it. With the collapse of Syria, the order they established is also collapsing. The issue is not only the fall of the Baath regime. This is where Kurdistan’s role comes to the fore. It determines the fate of everyone. There are some centers of this war, and they focus on Kurdistan. Because they see that whoever takes Kurdistan will shape the Middle East. And since the war is becoming a war for Kurdistan, it has a great impact on Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. It creates great fear in both Iran and Turkey.

They want to do in Iraq what they have done in Syria. There is such information circulating. Just as they gave Turkey a role in Syria, they want to do the same in Iraq. In this way, they want to utilize Turkey for their purposes. Erdoğan and the AKP constantly say that they are “local and national,” but all of their speeches are lies. They are neither national nor local. If they continue like this, they will sacrifice Turkey like the Ottoman Empire was sacrificed. Rêber Apo [Abdullah Ocalan] wants to develop democratization in Turkey so that Turkey does not become a scourge to the peoples. He strives for the liberation of the peoples of the region from the occupation of the Turkish state. And this can only be achieved through democratization. When Turkey democratizes, the peoples of the region will also breathe a sigh of relief. Because right now the Turkish state is occupying Iraq, Syria, Turkey democratizes, the peoples of the region will also breathe a sigh of relief, and Libya. This can only be stopped through democratization. That is why Rêber Apo’s work is important.

There is a possibility that Iraq will be disintegrated. There are already some steps that have been taken in this regard. The Iraqi state is already defeated. Maybe some steps are taken in the name of the state, but one cannot say that Iraq is still a complete and functioning state. It cannot handle a new war, especially a war like the one in Syria. This would be the disintegration of Iraq. Turkey has relations with many forces in the country and is organizing some of them. Iraq made an alliance with Turkey, and Iraq has just realized the true situation it is in. It is now realizing what Turkey did in Syria, how it hit everyone, especially Iran and Russia. I think Iraq has drawn a conclusion for itself. If it hasn’t drawn a conclusion yet, it will die by its own hand.

You are talking about the agreement that was made between the Sudani government and the Turkish government, right?

Yes, this agreement is very dangerous for Iraq, because they put everything at the service of the Turkish state. Turkey established many military bases on Iraqi soil, took many steps, strengthened its intelligence work, and deepened its works with Turkmen groups and ISIS through this agreement. That is how they utilize their signed agreement.

Iran has suffered one blow after another in recent times. Iran is said to be the biggest loser of the Syrian war. Are Iran’s hands really tied right now? Is it unable to do anything? Or is this just a deception?

Of course, Iran has been seriously hit, but no matter how much it is hit, it will want to defend itself. Iraq is now the most important to Iran. After Hamas and Hezbollah were hit and the Baath regime collapsed, now the situation in Iraq has come on the agenda. Iran will not easily withdraw its hand from Iraq, but America, Britain, and Israel also want to continue their moves in the Middle East, and Turkey also wants to benefit from this. Just as they wanted to benefit from what happened in Syria, they want to benefit from Iraq. Most probably the war in Iraq will expand. It is hard to tell what the outcome will be, but the role of nation states is over. Nation states are no longer strong enough to stand against global capital monopolies. Either they will compromise or they will dissolve. This also accounts for Iran and Turkey.

When Rêber Apo was interviewed by Mehmet Ali Birand years ago, he said, “I want to find an interlocutor to solve the Kurdish question on political and democratic grounds.” Any step Rêber Apo had taken was always on this basis, and he insisted on this. For example, he established a dialog with Turgut Ozal and declared many uniliteral ceasefires. Turgut Ozal also wanted to take some steps to solve the Kurdish question through political and democratic means. That is why Turgut Ozal was murdered. Again afterward, Rêber Apo insisted on this path, and the Dolmabahce Consensus was developed. This agreement was based on the democratization of Turkey. Erdoğan saw that the process developed by Rêber Apo had reached a serious stage, and he had two options; either take steps to solve the problem on political and democratic grounds or oppose it. But there was no change in Erdoğan’s mentality. He wanted to eliminate the Kurds. So he overturned the table. He prevented the Kurdish question from being solved on a political and democratic basis. One needs to discuss these things. Why was the table overturned? Did Rêber Apo ask for too much at Dolmabahce? No, he made reasonable demands, and all of them were for the democratization of Turkey. So why did Erdoğan overturn the table? Why did he deepen the war? Why did he put the so-called ‘collapse plan’ into action? What was the reason? These are the questions that need to be discussed.

As I mentioned, Rêber Apo told Mehmet Ali Birand that he wanted to find an interlocutor, that he wanted to solve the issue; in this sense, he declared many unilateral ceasefires and developed dialogue. He wanted to set an end to the initiative that was developed on August 15th, 1984; he wanted the weapons to be silenced and the Kurdish question to be solved on political and legal grounds. In his last message, Rêber Apo said, “Practically and theoretically, I have the power to solve the issue,” and he made clear that the state must fulfill its role and duty. Rêber Apo has been taking this line as a basis. He may be saying what he is saying now more straightforwardly, but it is the same thing he was saying in the past. There is nothing new.

Now again, Rêber Apo has taken a step forward, and we will see what kind of step the Turkish state, especially the AKP, will take. Everyone is waiting for this. They have not taken any steps so far. Erdoğan has not come to hold a meeting. Those who met with the delegation made statements saying that they “just had a chat.” Erdoğan’s discourse is not about a solution; all his statements are about war, killing, and threats. It is not based on the interests of Turkey and the peoples of Turkey. Rêber Apo is undertaking a historical task by insisting on a solution, and we stand by him. All democrats, socialists, and those who want the Kurdish question and the problems in Turkey to be solved, those who love Turkey should work for a solution. They should put aside their doubts. If they work for the solution of the problem, for the democratization of Turkey, then all doubts will disappear. The democratization of Turkey serves everyone; everyone benefits from it. Therefore, everyone must fulfill their historical duty on this basis.

You mentioned Erdoğan’s approach to this initiative taken by Abdullah Ocalan. A few days ago, Devlet Bahceli said in his party’s group meeting that there was a threat: “Either we live in these lands as brothers or we will be thrown out of Anatolia.” But looking at the situation, if Abdullah Ocalan is taken lightly, if the honor of the Kurdish people is played with, and if their chauvinist rhetoric against the PKK continues, what kind of result will emerge? Do the Kurds have other options?

As I pointed out before, the position of both the Kurds and the PKK is now much stronger than ever before. The roads that had been closed to the PKK in the past are now open. The Turkish state should not miscalculate. It should not think that the PKK is in a constricted position, that through pressure and persecution it could force the Kurds to accept everything they want. That would be their death. There are much greater opportunities for both the Kurds and the PKK than before. There are many forces that can and want to establish relations with the PKK. They even want to give the PKK opportunities that they did not give before. If the Turkish state does not intend to participate in the solution of the Kurdish question, the PKK has strong alternatives. The PKK’s hands are not tied. On the contrary, everyone is making calculations over the Kurds and the PKK. The Turkish state has to think and act responsibly. Rêber Apo thinks of all peoples and wants to fulfill his duty to humanity. He wants to do this with Turkey. But if Turkey does not take steps in this regard, there are many alternatives, but they wouldn’t turn out well for Turkey. We do not want Turkey to fall into such a situation.

Rêber Apo wants to solve the issue with Turkey. Otherwise, there are many other circles and forces, and many of them want to establish relations; they want to take the Kurds and the PKK to their side, and on this basis they want to conduct politics in the Middle East. I would like to issue a warning to the Turkish state; they should not fall into an error of judgment. If Bahceli says what he says, it is because he sees some realities. Like I said, what he is saying is reminiscent of the last period of the Ottoman Empire. Mustafa Kemal saw the danger in front of Turkey. If they had not formed an alliance with the Kurds, they would not have been able to get out of this danger, and they would lose completely. That’s why he formed an alliance with the Kurds. Like this, they were able to get rid of the danger and survive.

The conjuncture that existed at that time also allowed this. This is how he got results and saved Turkey from danger. Bahceli realized that now again great danger is approaching Turkey. If they do not get the help of the Kurds, they will lose in a very big way. Bahceli’s concern is Turkey and the Turks. He is calculating how he can keep them alive. He knows that he can do this by forming an alliance with the Kurds. He has no other option. It is Bahceli who is fighting us more than anyone else. If he says today that we urgently need to form an alliance with the Kurds, he says this because he sees that the danger is very close. That’s why he says that nothing can be solved or won by war; that peace wins. That is correct. Some people in Turkey say that if there are discussions about peace, it means that there is war; that’s why the issue of peace itself is being discussed. This is true; why talk about peace where there is no war? Now they admit some things. I don’t know whether they accept them willingly or whether they accept them out of necessity, but our people should know that the position of the Kurds, the PKK, and Rêber Apo now is much stronger than ever before.

We have much greater opportunities than before. But no one should be complacent here. This is a must. No one must be influenced by their psychological special warfare. All the propaganda in the Turkish media is meant to deceive our people and confuse everyone. Our people should not listen to them. They should listen to Rêber Apo and the movement. They should believe in themselves, Rêber Apo, and the movement and act on this basis. I have faith in the Kurdish people. The Kurdish people are organized and political people. They understand and distinguish many things. The Turkish state cannot influence the Kurdish people with such psychological and special warfare methods. Of course, our people still need to be careful in this regard. They should increase their struggle and develop the global campaign that was deployed for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo more strongly and everywhere. Maybe we will have some difficulties, but in the end we will win big, and it will be a win for humanity.