In the first part of this in-depth interview, Mustafa Karasu, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the anniversary, on 9 January, of the First Paris Massacre, as well as the first meeting by the DEM party with Abdullah Öcalan.

The anniversary of the dastardly attack on Sara, Rojbin, and Ronahi is just a few days ahead of us. January itself is a month characterized by many such targeted assassinations, especially of political and revolutionary women. What would you like to share with us on the occasion of the twelfth anniversary of the First Paris Massacre?

Before I start, I would like to congratulate everyone on the new year and hope that it is going to be a year of peace and tranquility for everyone.

January is indeed a month in which many dear comrades were martyred. Just to name some of them, on January 4, 2016, Pakize Nayir, Fatma Uyar, and Seve Demir were murdered. On January 6, 2017, Rubar, Halil, and Murat were martyred. On January 9, 2013, Sara, Rojbin, and Ronahi were assassinated. And on December 23rd, 2022, comrades Evin, Abdurrahman Kizil, and Mir Perwer were massacred. I remember all the martyrs that gave their lives in January with great respect and gratitude.

These martyrs have great historical meaning to us. I stayed together with comrade Sara, who was among those who founded the party, in the prison for years. Then again, comrades Rubar and Halil were two comrades that took crucial roles in our struggle. And comrade Evin, who had been a member of the Executive Council. What I want to highlight is that very valuable comrades were martyred this month.

Comrade Sara is very well known due to the fact that she was involved in the founding of the party, but she is also very important beyond that. Especially in the struggle for the freedom of Kurdistan, the pioneering role of a woman at such a level, who has ensured so much development in the freedom struggle, is the expression of an important renewal and innovation. Comrade Sara was not only among the founders of the party but was also one of the pioneers of the prison resistance. She had a decisive influence on the strong resistance in the prison and the formation of the moral values of the resistance. Most importantly, as Rêber Apo [Abdullah Öcalan] put it, Sara’s life, from a historical aspect, represents not only the history of women’s struggle for freedom in Kurdistan, but the struggle and history for women’s liberation in general.

This foundation stone of the struggle for women’s liberation, that was laid by comrade Sara and that was strengthened by thousands of women that gave their lives for it, is today being built on by thousands, tens of thousands of women that are participating in this great struggle. Comrade Sara has a crucial role in the women’s liberation struggle and in the democratic change of Kurdish society. The women’s liberation struggle means the deepening of the struggle for freedom in Kurdistan and the deepening of democratization. Women’s liberation has such a great value to add to the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. And in this struggle, comrade Sara’s contribution was massive.

Rêber Apo labeled the assassination of comrade Sara the ‘Second Dersim Massacre’. Indeed, in a way, it was an attack to destroy Dersim (tr. Tunceli), which was rising up again and resisting. The assassination was planned by the Turkish national intelligence and directly targeted her. It was an assassination planned and approved by Hakan Fidan, who is the current foreign minister of the Turkish state. And that in itself shows the true face of the Turkish state quite well. On the one hand, Hakan Fidan came to talk with us in Oslo, as if he would play a role in the solution to the Kurdish question. And on the other hand, he had carried out an assassination, a massacre, which signified the Kurdish genocide. One should never forget this. The reality of the Turkish state needs to be seen in all its colors.

The struggle initiated by comrade Sara is developing greatly right now. It is developing all over the world. The theoretical and historical grounding of the women’s liberation struggle by Rêber Apo has given a great impetus to it. Today, comrade Sara has become the symbol of women’s liberation not only in Kurdistan, not only in the Middle East, but also all over the world. All our martyrs are comrades who have created great values.

Comrade Evin was also among those who were martyred in the second Paris Massacre. She was a comrade who was born and raised in the heart of the region of Botan, who embodied the values of Kurdishness, the values of Botan, and became a leader in the freedom struggle. Botan is the heart where our struggle for freedom was ignited, and in terms of women’s liberation, thousands of women from Botan, like comrade Evin Goyi, poured into our ranks, played, and continue to play a historical role in social change in Kurdistan.

Our comrades Rubar, Halil, and Murat, who were martyred on January 6, 2017, have lived in the struggle for many years. Personally, I have known comrade Rubar since 1976 in Antep. At that time, he had not been part of the group that laid the foundation for the freedom struggle in Kurdistan yet. He was a construction worker. He was very young back then and joined later on. He devoted his whole life to this struggle. And his family joined the struggle. Both his sisters were martyred as well. And one of his brothers spent more than 15 years in prison. And his mother is still one of the moral values of our struggle.

Seve Demir, Pakize Nayir, and Fatma Uyar gave their lives during the self-administration resistance. They were also female comrades from the bosom of Botan. I met Seve Demir when she came to the mountains once. She was a very enthusiastic, excited, sympathetic, and sociable comrade. I commemorate all these comrades once again on this occasion, with respect and gratitude.

On December 28, a delegation of the DEM party, consisting of Pervin Buldan and Sirri Sureyya Önder, went to Imrali and held a meeting with the peoples leader Abdullah Öcalan. Why is the meeting only taking place now? What significance does it have, and what will follow from it?

On October 23, 2024, there was a family meeting in Imrali. Rêber Apo talked to his nephew, Ömer Öcalan, and through him, he made it clear that the isolation continues. Rêber Apo said that “they did everything in order to turn this place for me into hell”. In the meeting, Rêber Apo elaborated on how the state approaches him and what approach he himself has. Another long time has passed since this meeting now took place. Actually, it would have happened sooner. But when the Assad regime collapsed and political uncertainty emerged in Syria, they didn’t let them meet at first, thinking that the impact of the messages Rêber Apo would convey might be negative for them.

The first point that needs to be emphasized and underlined is that the isolation continues. One cannot say that there were one or two meetings with Rêber Apo, and so the isolation was lifted. He is not allowed to meet with his lawyers. He is not allowed to meet with his family. Why? If the isolation is lifted, why is he not allowed to meet? And there is also a comrade in the prison with Rêber Apo, who has been imprisoned for more than 30 years. According to the law, his time in prison is over; he must be released, but they don’t release him. Why? That is also part of the isolation. They don’t let him out for this reason. Rêber Apo is talking to him, meeting with him, and sharing his thoughts. If he comes out, he will be able to express what Rêber Apo thinks, how he evaluates issues, etc., and will be able to convey these thoughts to society. That is why they are not letting this comrade go.

One should not forget these facts when saying, 'The delegation went and met with Rêber Apo.' As the saying goes, ‘There is no spring with only one flower’. An approach such as “the isolation was lifted with one meeting, everything is going well, everything is getting better” would be wrong. Especially when it comes to the reality of the Turkish state, of course, one must be cautious. The policies of this state are clear. Its policies against the Kurds are clear. The 26-year persecution of Rêber Apo is clear.

Devlet Bahceli had said, 'Let the DEM party go, and let Imrali come here and speak under the name of the DEM party,' but one must look at what was said to DEM yesterday. “Crush it, finish it, shut it down!” They were almost calling to cut off their head, and they refused to acknowledge their right to live. So what has suddenly happened? When it comes to the Turkish state, especially when it comes to the Kurdish question, it is necessary to approach state policies with caution. This is not a matter of optimism or pessimism. This is an expression of historical fact and responsibility when it comes to this serious issue.

Of course, it is good to have a meeting with our leader. It is good to learn about his health. It is important to have a meeting with the leader and to convey his thoughts. Regardless of the Turkish state’s intentions, regardless of its approach, from this point of view, we, of course, value and give meaning to such a meeting. It is very important that Rêber Apo meets with a delegation and expresses his thoughts.

Why is Rêber Apo allowed to meet, particularly now? They are talking about a process, but they are not giving it a name. Everyone knows what this is about. The people know it, the political forces know it, the world knows it. Why is there a meeting with Rêber Apo now? Rêber Apo is not just any ordinary prisoner. He is the representative and leader of a people. He was thrown into prison for raising the consciousness of a people, organizing, and struggling, and for this, such heavy isolation is being applied. All forms of isolation are implemented against Rêber Apo because he raised up a people who wanted to be annihilated and subjected to genocide. Now, such a meeting is related to the Kurdish question, but how is it related? This is what needs to be evaluated. We will learn more details about this in time. We will learn which view of the Kurdish question this meeting is the result of and why such a meeting was held. But what is clear is that Rêber Apo has certainly fought all his struggles for the freedom of the Kurdish people and has made great efforts for this struggle to result in a democratic solution.

There is an interview with Rêber Apo conducted by Mehmet Ali Birand in 1988. It was published as a book and can be read by everybody. The approach Rêber Apo formulates in the interview is the same as he has today. Rêber Apo is trying to solve the Kurdish question within a reasonable framework, within a democratic framework, on the basis of the brotherhood of the peoples of Turkey. He has devoted his whole life to this. As comrade Cemil Bayik pointed out, Rêber Apo would never do anything to the detriment of the peoples. Whatever is in the interest of the peoples, whatever is right, whatever is right at this time, in this place, he will approach in that direction. This is Rêber Apo’s approach. Rêber Apo evaluates the historical process, evaluates the political developments of today, and, accordingly, he puts forward whatever is the right approach. Rêber Apo always has an approach to the solution of this question, for a solution on the right basis, for a solution on the basis of the brotherhood of peoples. He has a consistent line. Of course, the struggle, line, and politics may take different forms depending on the time and place, especially according to developments.

This meeting of Rêber Apo was important. And, of course, right now everyone evaluates it from their own perspective. What is Rêber Apo expressing? He says that a paradigm has been established and that he joins and supports it. But what is Rêber Apo trying to say? It is the intention of this paradigm to work out a solution without violence and war. This is not the first time he has expressed this; he has been saying it for forty years and has reiterated it in his prison writings, as well as in all the talks that have ever taken place in Imrali. He says that this issue must be resolved without violence and war. Rêber Apo has always pointed out that this is the only way. Without war, he wanted to approach the issue democratically and through dialog. What Rêber Apo is saying today is exactly the same. That is the intention expressed in the new paradigm. He wants to solve this issue beyond war on a democratic basis.

Seven main points were highlighted from the meeting with Rêber Apo. The most important of them is the ‘democratic transformation’. I think that this is the key point. Rêber Apo says that the aim of all the discourses and steps to be taken is to ensure democratic transformation, to ensure democratic transformation in Turkey. Rêber Apo had this approach in 2015 as well. This was the basis of the Dolmabahce Agreement. There are some people who say that the PKK broke that process or that they wanted too many things; that this would be why it broke down. That is far from being true. There was a process. It was a process to drag the AKP government into a solution process. It was entering that process with the Dolmabahce agreement, but then it left. That is the truth. What happened after that? The June 7 elections took place. And right before that, there was the massacre committed by ISIS, and on July 24, dozens of planes dropped bombs on us. Back then, Davutoglu said, 'We prepared for this a year in advance.'

Now Rêber Apo is handling this process in a way that will lead to a democratic transformation. This is the essence. It is democratic transformation. And democratic transformation means democratization of the country. What is needed for this? The Kurdish question needs to be solved. Can there be democratic transformation without a solution to the Kurdish question? Why is there no democracy in Turkey anyway? Why is it so anti-democracy? Why were the AKP, the MHP, and the state opposing democracy? Because they were not ready. They were saying that if there is democratization, Kurds will benefit. If there is democratization, the Kurdish question will be solved. Acceptance of language, identity, and culture would emerge. That’s what they were afraid of, and that’s why they opposed democracy.

Now we, of course, question whether AKP-MHP, which used to oppose democracy because it would benefit the Kurds, has now come to a mindset of democratic transformation that will benefit the Kurds. For that, we will look at their practice. It is not the multiplicity of demands of the freedom movement that puts obstacles to the solution of the Kurdish question. It is not the abundance of demands but their lack of the necessary mentality. Their mentality is not democratic; it is not in favor of solving the Kurdish question. That is why no solution has been developed so far. It has nothing to do with the multiplicity of demands. Rêber Apo shows the most reasonable approach, and so does our movement. But their mentality did not change; denialism continued.

Now Ahmet Turk says, 'We are not negotiating'. Because there are things that cannot be negotiated. We used to organize resistance in prison; we used to meet with the administration; we even had meetings with the ministry at that time as a result of the prison resistance. We always asked them, 'Are human rights to be negotiated?'. Human rights cannot be negotiated. We said that we were going to meet with our family and asked them, 'Is that something that needs to be negotiated?'. We said that there will be no torture anymore and asked them, “Is that something that needs to be negotiated?”. Kurds have human rights too. Democracy also accounts for Kurds. There can be no negotiation about the question of whether Kurds have education in the mother tongue, whether they are allowed to teach themselves, or whether they exist or not. These are the natural rights of the Kurds.

One needs to look at this from the perspective of democratization. That is the approach of Rêber Apo. Already before 2015, he held talks, and in all these talks, all his efforts were to pave the way for democratization in Turkey. It was to enable the democratic forces to breathe, to strengthen them. It was to bring together the democratic forces in Turkey. It was for the Turkish left and democratic forces to come together. The whole effort of Rêber Apo in those processes was to develop the process of creating an atmosphere of democratization in Turkey. Because Rêber Apo also sees that without democratization and democratic transformation in Turkey, the Kurdish question cannot be solved. Democratic transformation and the fundamental rights of the Kurdish question are intertwined and cannot be separated from each other.

We fully support the efforts of our leader. Because he will always strive for the good and benefit of the peoples. Rêber Apo will carry out this work for the democratization of Turkey and the solution to the Kurdish question. He said that if they have a serious intention of solving the Kurdish question, he is ready to play his role. But Rêber Apo clearly pointed out the necessity of their serious intention.