In the second part of this interview with Stêrk TV, KCK Executive Council member Sabri Ok said that "the Turkish state has economic, political, internal, and external problems. Turkish society has historically not really experienced a process of democratization."

The first part of the interview can be read here.

It is often said that the AKP is pursuing a policy of crisis management in Turkey. This is reflected in all areas, including foreign policy, for example. What responsibility do the democratic, socialist and opposition forces in particular have towards this policy of constant crisis?

The Turkish state has economic, political, internal, and external problems. Turkish society has historically not really experienced a process of democratization. For example, looking at Europe, one can see that there has been a struggle for democracy for hundreds of years; democratic achievements and values have emerged – now, if a European state wants to destroy these values, European society will prevent it; it will struggle. In the history of Turkey, this struggle has remained very weak. Politics has always been regulated from above. Society has not fully strengthened the democratic struggle. That is why it has always been easy to rule the state, while society has remained silent. But as we know, the world is changing, especially the Middle East is changing; Turkey’s problems are very deep, and their development is decisive. It is no longer possible to easily govern the state. Looking at the situation of the AKP, their foreign policy is still based on Neo-Ottomanism; they want to spread from the Middle East to North Africa like the Ottomans. What are they doing in Libya, for example? Are they solving any problems there, or are they deepening the existing ones? What are they doing in Somalia? Are they solving any problems there, or are they deepening the existing ones? Or Iraq, an independent state that neighbors Turkey. Turkey deployed tens of thousands of troops and occupied Iraq. Same accounts for Syria.

Does Turkey’s intervention in Syria solve any problems? The main reason why the problems in Syria cannot be solved is the Turkish state. The main problem of the Kurdish people, the other nations, beliefs, and religions in the region is the current Turkish state. They do politics with whoever is closest to their mentality. They support those who behead women and children, especially those who target Êzidîs (Yazidis) and Kurds. This politics will not bring peace and democracy to Syria. Their foreign policy is all about escalation, occupation, and injustice. This does not give the Turkish state any credibility or power. On the contrary, it weakens it.

But like I said, the Turkish state also has the same problems at home. What is the state of their economy? It is probably ranked as the fifth or sixth-worst economy in the world. Is it because of Turkey’s lack of underground and above-ground wealth, or is Turkish society unemployed? The reason is that the bill for the trillions they have spent on the war over the decades is being charged to Turkish society. How does the Turkish state, the AKP, manage this? Through repression. They try to force Turkish society not to raise their voice, not to protest, but instead to accept everything, to consent to everything. Society is miserable; politics is blocked; academics do not dare to speak; intellectuals hide their thoughts; universities are not free; society is not democratic or free. In Turkey there is no stability, only chaos, crisis, and a bunch of intertwined problems. The only possible way towards a solution would be democratic politics, but instead they insist on oppression. The AKP’s will, preference, and reality deem this necessary; it is not democratic, but oppressive, using courts and police force against society.

To name just one of the practices that stem from this state policy, for years they have appointed trustees to municipalities against Kurdish democratic politics, in the past against the HDP and today against the DEM. And the Kurdish people never gave in to this; they insisted on their struggle. The Turkish state, the government, is afraid of democracy. They are always afraid of the stance of society. Right now, there is also a development within the CHP. Ekrem Imamoğlu, who stands out as an alternative to Erdoğan, is preparing himself for the presidency. So the AKP started to go after the CHP. Most recently they arrested Ekrem Imamoğlu and appointed trustees to several CHP municipalities. The CHP’s stance against these attacks was important and crucial. But one can’t help but wonder where this attitude has been hidden until now. There was so much pressure, rejection, annihilation, and attacks against the political will of the Kurdish people, against democratic politics already before, but the CHP didn’t raise any voice against it. Today, they had to take a stand because there was such pressure on them themselves. We still see it as positive, but the important thing is that they generally insist on this; if this persists and the CHP determines, it will respond to this historic and important moment.

It was not only under the leadership of the CHP that society united and formed a democratic will and a force for action. Society is about to explode in the face of the oppression and cruelty of the AKP state. It has always bottled up its discontent, always swallowed it, but today it says enough is enough. Hundreds of academics and intellectuals have now taken a stand against Erdoğan due to oppression and persecution. They said enough is enough. We consider it important that academics express their stance so clearly and responsibly. It is almost like a call. A call inviting everyone to responsibility. It is a call for the people to stand up, to defend their rights against injustice, and to stand for democracy and freedom. We look at the universities; for the first time in years, thousands of students from Kurdistan that moved to the metropolises of Turkey stood up. This is also very important. Under the leadership of women and with the participation of the youth, society is now on its feet. This is an important moment. If all democratic forces unite their voices and political will, if they take action together, if they speak out in unison for the democratization of Turkey, for the rights of the Kurdish people, and for the freedom of Rêber Apo [Abdullah Öcalan] history will be written.

The Kurdish people and democratic politics have suffered a lot. They have paid a high price and resisted, and no one has been able to break their will. They have always demonstrated their stance against injustice, and they do so today. Where there is injustice against municipalities, universities, society, laborers, and trade unions, they will rise up. If the executives of the Istanbul Bar Association are dismissed, democratic politics, democratic institutions, and forces will take a stand and defend them.

There are few examples of such injustice in the world as there are in Turkey. For the democratization and stability of Turkey, for the solution of the Kurdish question, there are opportunities for democratic and political forces and the Kurdish people to unite their voices and become active. In this way, the AKP is left with two options; either it sees the people’s activism, the call of the people, respects it, changes itself, and takes steps; for this, Rêber Apo has already opened up possibilities; it responds to this, takes serious, honest steps, and initiates a process – but unfortunately there are no signs of this – or it cannot resist the demand and will of the society for the democratization of Turkey. The AKP’s rule will not last forever. There is no stability in Turkey’s crisis situation. The world is in crisis; the Middle East is in crisis. Turkey is going through a crisis far more than that. There must be an extraordinary struggle for democratization. Without this, history will repeat itself, and none of Turkey’s problems will be solved.

Many years ago, your movement declared March 28, the day on which the first commander of the guerrilla comrade Agit gave his life, as a national day of heroism. On the occasion of this anniversary, what traces did comrade Agit leave in your movement that have an impact today?

To begin with, on the occasion of the anniversary of his martyrdom, I respectfully commemorate comrade Agit and bow before his legacy as well as the legacy of all the martyrs that have given their lives in this struggle.

Comrade Agit has a special place in our history. As Rêber Apo said, he is a national commander. Just as Mazlum Dogan is the cornerstone of the PKK’s resistance, commander Agit is the bridge from the prison in Amed (tr. Diyarbakir) to the mountains. Comrade Agit was the first to bravely take to the mountains of Kurdistan. In this respect, he prepared new ground. He was the first to establish and train guerrilla forces and conducted diplomacy and politics under the most difficult conditions. He was an activist when necessary, a politician when necessary, and a diplomat when necessary. He was a versatile and developed personality. However, when Agit is mentioned, his command comes to mind. He was a national commander, and played a leading role in the establishment of the guerrilla.

In Agit’s vocabulary, there was no room for complaint, pessimism, or negativity. There was always victory, a positive outlook, and self-confidence. No matter what the conditions were, no matter how difficult it was, Comrade Agit would always find a way to take steps and achieve results. He was very confident in himself. Those who were with Comrade Agit learned to trust in their own strength. Being with Comrade Agit meant achieving results. He always gave confidence to his comrades and society.

One of his most important characteristics was his courage. He was a strategic thinker and was always focusing, trying to anticipate. Developing plans accordingly, setting goals, realizing big goals, and thinking big were the greatness of Comrade Agit’s personality. For this reason, Rêber Apo constantly mentions comrade Agit. He left his mark on the movement and developed a historic initiative. When Comrade Agit was martyred, the state propagandized that Rêber Apo’s right hand was destroyed, that the PKK would never recover. There was, in fact, a grain of truth in it. Comrade Agit was indeed irreplaceable. However, as a result of Rêber Apo’s labor, concentration, struggle, and training of thousands of friends, today thousands of comrades like Agit, Mazlum, Sara, Rahshan, and so on form today’s YJA Star and HPG guerrilla. A spirit was created, and this spirit forms the foundation of today’s guerrilla. Comrade Agit has left such a legacy that this struggle will continue, will get results, and will succeed, no matter what the conditions are. Thousands of young people and guerrillas from all four parts of Kurdistan and abroad are standing and fighting with this belief.

April 4, the 76th birthday of peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan, is just a few days away. It is a day traditionally celebrated by the Kurdish people and their international friends. Coming to an end of our interview, what would you like to tell us about this day?

We celebrate the birthday of Rêber Apo as the birthday of our people. To open up on this, Rêber Apo has never lived for himself. We do not consider him as one individual. He does not belong to himself. Rêber Apo is millions of people. With his thousands of years of analysis and paradigm, he illuminates the way forward for humanity and is the answer to many problems out there. No nation-state borders, no identity can define Rêber Apo. He belongs to everyone, to humanity. This is why this day is important. The people should celebrate this day with great excitement and enthusiasm. Such national days are rare in the history of the Kurdish people. It unites all Kurds. It is a chance, a historical opportunity, and should be approached like this. Our people are approaching and evaluating it in this way. Rêber Apo’s paradigm of women’s freedom, social ecology, and democratic society is the foundation of this revolution. On April 4th it is celebrated. Kurds have planted thousands of trees to celebrate this day. This is a beautiful and important tradition that needs to be continued, and generally speaking, this day must be a day of celebration.

As the Kurdish people, and especially as members, cadres and militants of this movement, we consider this day as a special day, a day to see our own reality once again, to review ourselves. How close am I to the reality of Rêber Apo today? To what extent do I represent Rêber Apo in my life? To what extent can I respond to his struggle? What are my shortcomings and weaknesses? How can I improve myself further? How can I be the answer for the future? It is a day that we take as a basis to rebuild ourselves, to create a new synergy, a new power in ourselves, to organize ourselves. It is not just a celebration, but an awareness, self-awareness, self-recognition, self-knowledge, seeing, and re-creating oneself… Therefore, I congratulate everyone in the four parts of Kurdistan, especially women and youth, on the birthday of Rêber Apo.