In the third part of this in-depth interview, Duran Kalkan, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the significance of democratic confederalism as well as the women’s revolution that is taking place in Kurdistan under the leadership of the PKK and PAJK.

The first part of the interview can be read here, and the second part here. 

You said that the PKK is a movement of leadership. How should that definition be understood? What is the reality of leadership in the PKK, and what is the role of Rêber Apo [Abdullah Öcalan]? How should the participation of this reality be?

That is correct; the PKK is a movement of leadership, and that is related to being a pioneering movement. It is not an ordinary movement. It is not a movement that gives power and support to something. On the contrary, it is a movement that analyzes, evaluates, criticizes, takes positive aspects, rejects negative aspects, and envisions a new life. It is a revolutionary movement, a movement of great change. It does this as a pioneer. It is undoubtedly a movement of leadership that is leading the way, preparing a new and free life, and exploring and creating the paths to get there.

Rêber Apo made a decisive contribution to the birth, establishment, and everything of the PKK. Rêber Apo’s role is decisive. The roles of others vary accordingly. There are those who contribute more, those who contribute on average, those who contribute less, and, of course, there are those who obstruct. From the beginning, the role of Rêber Apo has been decisive. It is a fact that Rêber Apo is the one who contributes the most, from forming the movements' thoughts, theory, program, strategy, tactics, leadership, training cadres, to leading the party, forming the guerrillas, and leading the people. He has always been at the forefront, spends the most effort, and makes the greatest contribution.

The PKK did not take shape through a bunch of people sitting around a table, discussing, agreeing on some principles, forming a common administration, and establishing a party. There are such movements, such parties. They have tried to emerge in Kurdistan throughout history, but the PKK was not like that. From the beginning, the PKK was a movement shaped around Rêber Apo and formed on the basis of joining Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo determined, developed, and created all the measures, principles, and values of the movement. Others joined him and became one with Rêber Apo. Becoming a PKK member, joining the party, becoming PKK, means joining Rêber Apo, forming and organizing around Rêber Apo.

This is an important aspect, an important feature of the PKK. This is what leadership means. Rêber Apo said that participation in the leadership is based on consciousness and belief. Some participate with consciousness and some with conviction. But the most correct way is to participate with both, as he said. This is how to reach truth. He also stated that this is how comrades like Mazlum and Hayri participated, and they became the most successful party members. Consciousness means understanding the truth of Rêber Apo. Of course, belief means participating and being attached to the truth. But just seeing and evaluating the truth is not enough. In order to be a good revolutionary, militant, or patriot, the truth must be well understood and set into practice. Participating with knowledge, understanding, and belief is the right participation; it brings out the most successful revolutionism and patriotism.

In the past and now, especially on the basis of the new paradigm, we question the way of participation in the PKK and in the reality of the Rêber Apo more. There are many things we arrange according to our own wishes, and one thing that falls within this framework and is much discussed is emotional participation. “I have participated according to my emotions.” That’s not how it works. That’s not how you join the PKK. On the contrary, Rêber Apo evaluates the emotion that is not thought through and not organized as a great danger. The power of emotions, when they are well-thought-out and organized, is a power that cannot be destroyed. But an emotion that is detached from thought and organization, through which no action arises, opens the way for great dangers and prepares the way for fanaticism. Emotional participation must be well analyzed and evaluated as a step towards the PKK and towards leadership. It could be a start, but Rêber Apo and the party must be well understood. With this, together with deep thought and conviction, participation can take place. The mistakes and damage caused by emotional participation must be overcome.

To this day, the PKK is not fighting with the Turkish army, the second largest in NATO, but is actually fighting against NATO’s Gladio. It is a force that not even states could withstand, but the PKK seems to have managed to strengthen itself in the resistance against it. How has the PKK made it to the present day? In other words, what are the characteristics of the PKK that have kept it alive?

This actually is a good definition; the question is well put. It really reveals the PKK’s strength. It expresses what kind of war it is fighting and against whom it is fighting. You ask how it was able to fight against these forces? Where did it find the courage and strength to wage war? And how did it survive while fighting against such a powerful force?

Well, especially for the last 26 years, these attacks have been carried out at the level of an international conspiracy. It directly targets Rêber Apo. The capitalist global hegemony directly plans, organizes, and executes it. It is the same now as it was in the beginning. There has been no change in this regard. Of course, it is not just the Turkish army, the Turkish state’s special warfare system, or the Turkish intelligence that conduct these attacks. From the very beginning, and on an increasingly prominent basis, the PKK has been fighting the NATO system, Gladio, and beyond that, the power and state system, the male-dominated mentality and system. These are multileveled struggles: ideological struggles, conscientious struggles, moral struggles, cultural struggles, literary struggles, and struggles of emotions.

These express a struggle as great as war, as great as political war, as great as social war. Even more than that. How does the PKK do all this? How has it survived? The essence of it needs to be evaluated on many dimensions. It is essentially based on its own strength, the strength of autonomy, the strength of the people, especially women, young people, and workers; after all, it has also adopted the name of the party of working people. How did it become such a strong autonomous force? This has to do with Rêber Apo’s approach and view of life. It can also be linked to the concrete situation in Kurdistan. There was no other option in Kurdistan. There was a situation where there couldn’t be any hope of getting support from others. There was no forming of alliances to hope for. Those who tried to collaborate with the state were more dangerous than the most worthy agents. A society and a country ignored and destroyed by the global dominant structure of the capitalist system.

Who are you going to get support from? Everyone is part of this system, and the ruling power and state system are against you. There was the Soviet Union that said it was an alternative. But they didn’t support either. In fact, as the Kurdish freedom struggle and the organization of the PKK gradually developed, the Soviet Union declined, and on the basis of its ideological contradictions, it dissolved and collapsed. There was seemingly no basis left. Rêber Apo saw this reality very well from the beginning. His awareness of history was very strong in this regard. He learned lessons of history well. In other words, he always questioned the situation of the resistance in the first quarter of the 20th century, the results of the resistance in the 19th century, and why these resistances were defeated, crushed, and failed to succeed. And thereby he realized that one has to rely on one’s own strength, one’s own power, but of course this is not enough; relying on one’s own strength is not enough.

One will rely on one’s own strength, but one will also have to rely on the people, on the power of people. One will believe that people who become conscious, educated, and organized are the greatest power. Technique is, of course, power; weapons are power; money is power; but the greatest power is the conscious and organized man. The greatest power of struggle is the apoist militant, the sacrificial militant, the PKK cadre. How did Rêber Apo define this by saying that it is the truth that has been rendered organized and activated? Bringing a person to this state is the greatest power. There is no power that can prevent it. This is not an exaggeration; we don’t need to prove it. The most recent example is the attack aimed at TAI in Ankara, which is the reality shown in Asya Ali and Rojger Helin. The place attacked is one of the most protected and is secured by the joint force of 40 states. But still, nothing could prevent that revolutionary militancy. This is the PKK strength.

How is it possible to create such militancy? By analyzing life and living according to the findings. The power of Rêber Apo needs to be seen, as do his persuasiveness, sincerity, consistency, and power of analysis. He offers a new life. He reveals the characteristics of this life and defines it as humane life. Based on this, he reshapes and educates human beings with their emotions, mindsets, and souls and creates a new free, conscious, and organized human being. This lies in Rêber Apo’s power to explain the truth and analyze life. He reveals the facts and truths at this level. There is no cheating, no wrong. He analyzes the concrete situation that reveals and shows everything clearly. Accordingly, he educates people and creates such a force. The power that makes the PKK invincible is this sacrificial militancy, the consciousness that creates it, the paradigm, the last line, the line of democratic civilization, the theory of democratic modernity. As long as this reality is taken as a basis, everyone should know that no one can defeat the PKK; the PKK will remain invincible. It has been like this until now. It will be like this from now on too. It is probably best to seek and understand the secret here.

What especially distinguishes the PKK from other national liberation movements and Kurdish parties? What is the secret of the PKK? How did the PKK turn into an ideological, political, military and social reality that is perceived by everyone?

We have already partially touched this above. There are many things that distinguish the PKK from other organizations and Kurdish parties. It differed in the way it defined, recognized, analyzed, and thought about the Kurdish reality, the reality of Kurdistan. It also differed with his commitment to Kurdish existence and freedom. Rêber Apo said that if he had not succeeded in uniting himself with the existence of the Kurdish people and the free existence of the Kurds with his own existence, he could not have created any of these developments. Kurdish patriotism and libertarianism are about dedication and not for material gain, not to become a civil servant or to make a name for oneself. He did not accept such a way of life for himself. He refused the seemingly beautiful material life.

The other Kurdish organizations did not. They lived like civil servants of an organization. They wanted to threaten the state a little bit and get more space for their civil servantship. They were begging for a little more share of the exploitation of Kurdistan and Kurdish society for themselves. They were not breaking away from the system. They envisioned living within the system. Therefore, their so-called Kurdishness, patriotism, revolutionism, and socialism always led them to develop their individual lives, to take some space, or they remained weak and powerless. They were not strong, strong-willed, or assertive. There was too much expectation on the outside. Instead of relying on their own power and developments, they had this kind of empty Kurdishism based on blunt nationalism. In other words, there was a ‘materialist revolutionism’. Therefore, they associated with the socialist system and liberalism. They evaluated the Kurdish reality on the basis of their own interests. Therefore, they could not break away from the system. They always sought reconciliation with the system and were reformists. They could not build an effective struggle within the system. When they came into contradiction or conflict, they immediately disappeared. Because they were under the control of the system. They did not have a structure to fight against the colonialist, genocidal mentality and system under all circumstances.

The PKK was not like this. It criticized their reformism, surrender attitude, primitive, reformist, and petite bourgeoise nationalism. The PKK criticized them intensely. On the basis of these criticisms, Rêber Apo both formed his own understanding and line and shaped himself according to them by educating himself on this basis. He did not become like them. When the conditions changed a little and the attacks increased, those in control disappeared. They tried to hold the PKK responsible for their liquidation due to their own approach and style. Their misconceptions were at that level. They did not assess the conditions in Kurdistan correctly; they were not committed to Kurdish freedom. They did not educate and organize themselves in a way to wage a true struggle for freedom under all circumstances. They could never get out of colonialist genocidal control. Those who were under control disappeared in a short time.

Also, other forces and organizations had been liquidated, but the PKK managed to always protect itself in these developments because it was open to change and transformation. Rêber Apo criticized the dogmatism but also gave self-criticism and said that we were also affected by this dogmatism. But we must know this; nevertheless, in the 20th century, Rêber Apo was the least dogmatic personality, the one who approached the process most openly and creatively. As he developed with the struggle, he deepened this creativity even more. He was constantly aware of change and transformation and envisioned renewing himself and the movement. He was always looking for innovation, not repeating what already existed, repeating things he had memorized, and doing what he had done over and over again. His questing characteristic never disappeared. His innovative attitude deepened; he was not afraid; he did not shy away from change, transformation, and innovation.

The paradigm shift did not come out of nowhere. And the change, development, and renewal in Rêber Apo did not happen only with a paradigm shift. There were always changes and developments step by step throughout the process. The paradigm shift against the international conspiracy actually foresaw a radical self-criticism, a radical renewal, and change. This is where the PKK’s strength and invincibility lie. In its transformation. Rêber Apo said that his most fundamental characteristic is his change-orientation. The power to defend something, to persistently defend it, to create it is also its character. He never gives up on that. This is the reality, the reality that made him struggle against so many attacks, that gave him the strength to fight. The international conspiracy, the attempt to destroy him, failed. So they put him in the Imrali system of torture, isolation, and genocide.

They said now it was over. They said the PKK had a maximum of six more months to live. No one believed that there would be any more struggle, but Rêber Apo believed in himself; he trusted himself. He trusted in his own strength and called on the organization and the people to follow him. And our movement and our people responded to this call of our leader. It was Rêber Apo that succeeded. Rêber Apo created success where everyone else was surrendering. This is not a normal, ordinary situation. Rêber Apo overcame any difficulties and obstacles and created new things starting from scratch, all of this with its own power. It is necessary to assess and understand Rêber Apo’s leadership qualities in all their dimensions.

It is this characteristic that makes the PKK so strong and invincible. This is how Rêber Apo was able to take down every hindrance in front of him. No other leader in Kurdistan has been able to lead uninterruptedly for more than 50 years. Despite the attacks of the international conspiracy, Rêber Apo did not interrupt the march of leadership. There is nothing similar in the world. He showed the strength to struggle for such a long period. The PKK gains success to the extent that it understands and implements the thoughts of Rêber Apo, organizes itself accordingly, and takes action. The more they put it into practice, the more successful it is. The more it understands, the more it puts it into practice. Sure, there are criticisms and self-criticisms in this regard. Sure, there are a lot of inadequacies; one needs to see that too. But the secret really lies in this creative, innovative power, this power of change. Anything that cannot change itself and that repeats the old cannot succeed, even if it is the PKK.