Mustafa Karasu, member of the KCK (Kurdistan Communities Union) Executive Council, spoke to Medya Haber TV on the latest developments in the context of the Third World War, with a special focus on the developments in Syria.

We publish the second part of the comprehensive interview below, the first part of which can be found here.

As the Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Ocalan has put it, “the isolation continues”, so too does the important struggle against it. An intensive special war is being waged by the Turkish state, especially on Imrali itself. What can you tell us about this phase, this struggle and this resistance?

An important global campaign aiming for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo (Leader Abdullah Öcalan) was launched last year and continues until today. As a result of this struggle, Omer Ocalan was able to hold a meeting with Rêber Apo on October 23rd. This meeting coincided with Devlet Bahceli calling for “Ocalan to come to the parliament and dissolve his organization.” But still, the meeting was a result of the struggle within the freedom campaign being effective in Turkey, Kurdistan, and the world. However, in that meeting, Rêber Apo pointed out that “the isolation continues.” He continued and said, “They want to turn this place into hell for me.”

The isolation continues uninterruptedly, but still the discourse that he might be allowed to meet with his family, that he might be allowed to meet with representatives of the DEM Party, is constantly kept on the agenda. There was a call by Devlet Bahceli, who said that there must be a meeting immediately. Actually, they were going to meet with Rêber Apo. And the purpose of the meeting was clear, as they are openly imposing on Rêber Apo to “dissolve his organization.” It was their intention to increase the pressure on Rêber Apo by saying that, after the meeting, he could now make the corresponding call. But in this process, the developments in Syria emerged. When the mercenaries of HTS and other gangs affiliated with the Turkish state attacked Syria, when Aleppo fell and these gangs continued to advance, they postponed the meeting with Rêber Apo. Fearing that Rêber Apo might say something about the situation in Syria, that he might address the Kurdish people and thereby contradict the policy of the Turkish state, they did not allow a meeting to take place. After Bahceli had initially said that there had to be a meeting immediately, it has now been postponed, unclear until when.

The isolation of Rêber Apo continues; it is not lifted by a handful of meetings, let alone a single one. The Turkish regime aims to change the agenda according to its political calculations and to normalize isolation. No one should be fooled by them. There is an intense special and psychological war on Imrali. In this respect, the struggle for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo must be continued.

A sensitivity regarding Rêber Apo was created. A sensitivity regarding his physical freedom and the struggle against isolation. This confronts the Turkish state with problems, as society has been set in motion. Seeing this sensitivity, the state is resorting to all means to weaken the struggle both in the world and in Kurdish society. All peoples and democratic forces should be sensitive about this issue. The isolation has not been lifted, the special war on Rêber Apo continues uninterruptedly. That one meeting was not the lifting of the isolation. On the contrary, as Rêber Apo said himself, “the isolation continues.” Also, as I mentioned, he said, “They want to turn this place into hell for me.” In this respect, their approach to Imrali lays open in front of us.

They will meet with Rêber Apo and try to pressure him to “dissolve his organization”, while offering nothing in return, not taking a step forward, not moving one bit towards a solution. In such a context, it must be understood that they are trying to use a meeting with Rêber Apo as an imposition, a blackmail, a threat. The public opinion, the Kurdish people, and their international friends in particular must be aware of this. There is an approach to turn a meeting with Rêber Apo into a threat and blackmail. Their intention is not to find a solution to the Kurdish question or to create a basis for discussion. Everyone has to be sensitive about this. The isolation continues. The struggle against this, the struggle for the freedom of Rêber Apo, must continue as well.

If Rêber Apo is to play his role, conditions must be created. He needs to meet with various forces and circles in a free environment and be able to express his thoughts freely. But what is their current approach? Not ensuring the physical freedom of Rêber Apo and not lifting the isolation shows that there is no true intention to solve this question, which is at least one hundred years old. There is a lot of special and psychological warfare that they are waging while no solution policy is developed. Awareness of this must be constantly present. The struggle must continue without slackening. Negligence would only serve the special war. Some individuals consciously and deliberately impose this and try to normalize the isolation. The only thing that matters is what Rêber Apo says.

If there are to be meetings, those who attend must be well aware of the Turkish state’s approach. They must ask themselves why the state allows representatives of the DEM party to meet Rêber Apo. The same applies if they allow other circles to meet. Does the meeting really serve a solution, or do they use it as propaganda in their special war? To intensify the special war against the Kurdish people? Such a meeting brings with it a historic responsibility. Accordingly, when they go, they have to be fully aware of the policies and approaches of the Turkish state. They should focus on the questions of what the policy of the Turkish state is, whether it has a solution policy, and what the attitude and approach of those who have a solution policy is.

There are circles that want to create a certain atmosphere by speculating about Rêber Apo, about meetings with him, or between Rêber Apo and the DEM party, as if a solution was being worked on. But one simply has to open his/her eyes, because at the same time they are speaking very openly. Bahceli, Erdogan, and Mehmet Ucun are clearly saying that it’s not about finding a solution to anything. They are talking about ending the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom, “ending terror.” They are not talking about a solution. They do not recognize the basic rights of the Kurds. Their mentality does not allow this. They do not even discuss this. They say that there is no Kurdish question; it has already been solved. The Kurds are not allowed to organize education in their mother tongue; the self-administration of the Kurds is not accepted, and, generally speaking, neither the language, identity, culture, nor the very existence of the Kurdish people is recognized in the constitution. Bahceli says, ‘Kurds are our dear ones’; however, he is talking about Kurds who have no rights, no education, and, above all, no will of their own. In the past, they never accepted Kurds. They said they were Turks. In truth, that is what they are still convinced of.

In view of this special war, one has to be very vigilant. Some Kurds and some circles have misconceptions. “There may be repression, persecution, and arrests, etc., but the peace process is still running!” There is no such thing. Anyone who, in times when there is such intense repression, when new trustees are constantly being appointed, when there is so much aggression against the Kurds, and when Rojava is being attacked in so many ways, is still saying that all of this “shouldn’t be taken so seriously” is just fooling themselves, trying to fool the Kurds; this is self-deception; it is deceiving the Kurds. This is the rhetoric of the AKP, of the MIT. It is a rhetoric of distraction. Everyone must guard against this, because anyone who thinks like this is not a supporter of the Kurds, not a supporter of the solution to the Kurdish question.

There is a concept, a concept of liquidation. And this is the language and approach of this liquidation concept. They use all forms of repression and oppression but still say that something is moving forward. What is it that they want to achieve? A Turkey without terror. But what does ‘a Turkey without terror’ mean in the Turkish mentality and language? For them, it means a Turkey in which the Kurdish people are not struggling for freedom and are oppressed. One must always be aware of this.

It is as Rêber Apo and our movement have always said, the Kurdish question cannot be solved by war but can only be solved by us through political, democratic ways. This is the most correct approach, and our movement, as well as our leader, continue to take this position.

But the approach of the Turkish state does not accept even the most reasonable approach. It does not accept the existence and will of the Kurds. It does not accept its identity, education in its mother tongue, or self-administration. A Turkey without terror. That does not mean the end of the war. In the current situation, a standstill in the war would not mean the development of a political solution. It must not be seen or understood in this way; instead, a correct approach is needed. They are trying to fool the Kurds by saying that Kurds and Turks are brothers and sisters. One has to be vigilant and not fall for the games, politics and promises of MIT and AKP.

The idea that a solution can come about parallel to all this oppression is dangerous. Every Kurd needs to take a stance against those with this understanding. I want to underline again that this understanding is deliberately created by the deep state, the AKP, and the MIT to deceive. It is the view of trolls.

There is so much pressure on Rêber Apo. And now they’re trying to spread rumors. As if Rêber Apo wanted to say something, but the movement didn’t want to implement it. That Rêber Apo would say something to the DEM party, but it wouldn’t implement it. What Rêber Apo says is clear. He is the leader of this people. He stands for the identity and existence of the Kurds. If he says something, who can oppose it? As if the DEM party or the PKK could oppose it if they wanted to. Therefore, I can only emphasize once again how important it is not to listen to these false rumors.

We have always pointed out that Rêber Apo is our interlocutor. But as chief interlocutor, he also needs to be approached correctly, seriously. Our movement, Rêber Apo, and Kurdish democratic politics are nothing one can play games with. We have a great experience, a century of experience, a great political consciousness, and we are aware of what is going on. We are in a position where we know what Erdogan and Bahceli are thinking, that we know what the deep state is trying to plan.

To be more specific about the Turkish regime’s efforts to undermine democratic politics and the will of the people; what is the goal that the regime is pursuing by appointing trustees? What does the government want from the DEM Party?

The policy of usurping municipalities with trustees continues. They have been continuing the trustee policy for a long time, for three terms now, to be precise. This time it is used as a method of blackmailing. With Devlet Bahceli’s speech, a new concept was determined, but it was actually a concept determined by Erdogan. Now these trustees are being put in place as part of this concept. They tell the DEM party that they should act according to the government, that if they do not do so, they cannot become a party of Turkey. What the members of the DEM say about this is that they are a true party of Turkey. The MHP is not a party of Turkey. The MHP is only a party of Turks but excludes all other peoples and faiths living in Turkey. The same applies to the AKP. If there really is a party of Turkey today, it is the one that has emerged from the tradition of the HDP.

By a party of Turkey, Erdogan and Bahceli mean a party that accepts the policy of the Turkish state. It is about the mentality of “one language, one culture, one flag, one country, and one state.” And when they talk about one state, they are talking about the centralistic state in which there is no room for democracy at the local level. That’s what they mean when they talk about a Turkish party. The Minister of Justice calls such a party a “reasonable party,” meaning that it will not fight against the AKP. There is no democracy in Turkey, and since there is no democracy, Kurds, Alevis, and all the other ethnic and religious communities have no rights. In their eyes, being reasonable, being a good party of the system, means not standing up for one’s own rights and complying.

Now, the trustees are being used as a threat and blackmail – either the DEM will comply, or they will appoint them. They call on the DEM to become a party of Turkey, meaning that it gives up its struggle, gives up its freedom struggle. It should approach the Kurdish struggle for freedom in the same way as the state does. In this respect, of course, the trustee policy will continue. Society needs to resist this. The democratic forces must struggle. Appointing trustees means opposing democracy. Trusteeship means ignoring the will of the people.

The correct approach is the approach of the people of Wan (tr. Van). Also, the people of Dersim (tr. Tunceli) took a very important stand and resisted the appointment of trustees. The people of Dersim clearly showed that they do not accept the trustee. It was the same in Elih (tr. Batman), Merdin (tr. Mardin), and Xelfeti (tr. Halfeti). But the attitude of Wan was outstanding. This struggle against the trustees is part of the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom; it is part of the struggle for self-government, for freedom, for local democracy, and it must be continued. Otherwise, it is not just a problem of one district, one municipality, or one mayor. It is much more than that.

The Kurdish people have been struggling for over a century, defending their values. The struggle against the trustee must be handled in the same way. All Kurds, everyone, must take a stance by recognizing that the trustee is an enemy of the Kurds, part of a centuries-old attack, part of the attack to reject and ignore the Kurdish will. One should look at the trustee policy to understand what the concept put forward by Devlet Bahceli is. How is the trustee policy carried out? With which understanding is it carried out? The answers to these questions show what kind of concept is being followed by them.

It is necessary to raise the struggle. It is not about opposing just any anti-democratic, unlawful practice, or about just opposing any violation of human rights. This opposing of the trustees should generally be seen as a struggle for the freedom of the entire Kurdish people. Trustees may have been appointed, but the people should take the responsibility of their municipalities in their own hands and establish their own administration. The people must maintain their own administration. They should not simply surrender to the trustees. Let me state it again: The Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom is embodied in the struggle against the trustees. The trustee attack is an attack on language, identity, culture, and everything. It is to ignore the will of the people. They talk about creating a “reasonable Kurd.” A Kurd who does not stand up for his own language, culture, and the freedom of his own people. Such a Kurd could become mayor; could become a member of parliament.

The struggle against the trusteeship needs to be taken very seriously; it is still insufficient. It had a good start, but it is not enough. It needs to be continuous. It is the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. The struggle against the trustees must go hand in hand with the struggle for the freedom of Rêber Apo, the struggle to protect Rojava, and the struggle against oppression.

We would like to move on to the war in the region. The war in the mountains in Kurdistan has not lost any of its intensity. What can you tell us about it?

This war has been going on for four years now. There was the attack on Gare on February 9th, and since then, the Turkish army has amassed all its forces and waged a total war against the guerrilla. They said that they would bring the guerrilla to an end within the same spring, then they said within one year, and now it has already been four years. This shows what kind of resistance and struggle the guerrilla is in. The Turkish army got stuck. Sure, they entered some places, but only with the support of the KDP. Without the support of the KDP, they would not have been able to take one step. Maybe they would have tried, but they would have run away. That is what was seen many times before when they tried to enter the Medya Defense Zones (guerrilla-held areas in southern Kurdistan/northern Iraq).

In fact, without the support of the KDP, they would have suffered the same fate once again. But the KDP is a power that knows the area and provides all kinds of support to the Turkish state. Most recently, with the support of helicopters and drones, it once again brought hundreds of soldiers to southern Kurdistan. Where are these troops positioned? It is positioning them in KDP areas, in Amediye, Dereluk, and Sheladize, with the KDP providing them with all kinds of support.

The Turkish Minister of National Defense was very enthusiastic the other day and said in the parliament that they had “closed the lock.” If such a thing were really true, Erdogan would certainly not have left it to him to announce it. Erdogan would have stood there himself and spent hours making propaganda and explaining how they had “closed the lock.” Erdogan cares a lot about such things.

The resistance, the war continues and will continue. They are currently making statements saying that they were done in the mountains and now were heading towards Rojava, as if to justify the attack on Rojava. That is how they themselves expressed it. Now, of course, war is becoming more widespread in the Middle East, and war will become more widespread in that area as well. The guerrilla will also widen the war against the Turkish army. As the war becomes more widespread, the Turkish army will bring in new soldiers and try to invade further. It’s not that the guerrilla will just stand still and watch the Turkish army come in and make themselves comfortable. The guerrilla will continue to hit the enemy wherever it is. The guerrillas are not simply resting in southern Kurdistan and the Medya Defense Zones and are content with that. The guerrilla is a sacrificial force with 50 years of experience. It has fought under the most difficult conditions. It is fighting all over northern Kurdistan, from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean; even where the Turkish army is dominant, it is conducting action. This war will deepen and spread even more.