To begin with, we would like to talk about what people are currently most concerned about. A meeting with the people’s leader, Abdullah Ocalan, has taken place. What does that mean? How do you evaluate this? And what impact does it have on ongoing processes and discussions?

As a result of a great struggle, Rêber Apo [Abdullah Ocalan] was allowed to hold a meeting with his family, meeting Omer Ocalan. Before that, various rumors were spread to the public regarding the health condition of Rêber Apo. It has always been like this in the past 26 years. At various times, this, on the basis of the continued special warfare persisting state, has been disseminating rumors regarding Rêber Apo’s health and security status through various individuals, causing great concern and anxiety among the Kurdish people, almost creating an outcry, and then having various short-term meetings for a few times or maybe even just once. It is trying to create a perception in the public opinion, as if the isolation has been broken, as if it has been overcome. In this way, it is trying to pacify the rising resistance and break its effect. After that, the special warfare policy continues with all its violence and without any change.

Now again, the same procedure can be observed. The global freedom campaign aiming for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo has reached a very important impact. A very strong resistance and a high level of people taking responsibility in the struggle for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo have emerged globally. From the academic sphere, over many non-governmental organizations to so many other relevant institutions, masses of people have taken the struggle against the torture and isolation system in Imrali on their agenda. Social resistance grew everywhere.

The level of resistance that emerged through the global freedom campaign has brought such games to the agenda of the Turkish state. Because it was stuck and was facing difficulties. Also, the developments in the region are pushing the Turkish state to the limit. It is experiencing a serious deadlock in domestic and foreign policy. When all this came together, it led to the decision to allow this meeting.

Of course, this in no way means that the isolation has been overcome. Again, the Turkish state is with great effort trying to create a perception that the isolation has been broken. This has nothing to do with reality. This is part of their special warfare concept. Whatever the purpose of such information provided in the framework of the special warfare and propaganda regarding the health and security of Rêber Apo, whatever the calculations of the Turkish state, these will come back to the Turkish state in a very bad way. This is something I want to particularly point out.

Rêber Apo has always stated this in the past years. Any negative development in Imrali cannot be considered normal by this movement, these people, and the general democratic society. Nothing is normal on Imrali; nothing is left to fate. Everything that happens in Imrali develops as a result of a genocidal policy, attack. If even one single hair of Rêber Apo’s is harmed, these people will take it as a reason to destroy the Turkish state. There will be no such thing as Turkey, no such thing as the Turkish state anymore. Turkey will turn into hell. This would mean a civil war in Turkey that would end with the collapse of the Turkish state and the disappearance of the Republic of Turkey.

Rêber Apo is the mortar of the brotherly coexistence, unity, and alliance of the Kurdish and Turkish people. Rêber Apo stands for the Kurdish people. Rêber Apo stands for the alliance of the Kurdish and Turkish people. Rêber Apo stands for the democratization of Turkey and for the freedom of the peoples of Turkey. In this sense, any approach or practice that threatens Rêber Apo’s health or security will bring the end of Turkey. It will bring the end of the Turkish state.

They are playing with fire. Over the past 26 years, they have tried many things and played many games. The rumors that they spread regarding his health and security solely serve their special warfare. This is done by the state itself. They are trying to create a perception in society in order to pacify it. They are trying to break the impact of the developing freedom struggle, the freedom campaign that especially aims for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. But the system of torture and isolation is continued with all its intensity. The genocidal attacks against the Kurdish people are being continued without interference.

As I pointed out before, what happened is staged. The rising struggle and the people’s outrage brought such a meeting to the agenda. Now again, the attacks of the state are intensifying. It started with the attack on the municipality of Shevshek (tr. Esenyurt). Now, they appointed trustees to the municipalities of Merdin (tr. Mardin), Elih (tr. Batman), and Xelfeti (tr. Halfeti) as well. The entire infrastructure of Rojava was bombarded on the pretext of the TUSAŞ attack. The genocidal attacks on Rojava have without a break continued and intensified. Similar attacks continue with all intensity and violence in northern Kurdistan, as well as in the Medya Defense Zones2. This situation has once again reveals the true face of this special warfare state, this special warfare government of the AKP-MHP, and the fascist government with all its nakedness. It was Rêber Apo who once again ripped the mask off their faces and emphasized that the isolation continues.

Rêber Apo revealed his stance and his approach in a very striking way. He said that if the conditions arise, he has the theoretical and practical power to turn the process from the armed struggle to the political and legal ground. He has this power, and as he pointed out, he can play a strong role in the democratic solution of the Kurdish question and can fulfill his duty and role in bringing peace and democracy to Turkey. As he said, he wants to serve the peoples of Turkey, wants to serve the democracy of Turkey, the democratic republic, and the democratic solution of the Kurdish question. The interlocutor of the Kurdish question is Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo is the negotiator for our movement, for our people. He represents the will of our people. He is the leader of the peoples. He is the pioneer of freedom. The Turkish state must solve the democratic solution of the Kurdish question by taking Rêber Apo as an interlocutor. Rêber Apo is ready for negotiations. He openly declared this to the public again.

If this state is going to take a step in this regard, if it is ready to solve the Kurdish question democratically, to save Turkey from a great catastrophe, from tumbling into the abyss, and from being dragged into hell, it will solve this issue with Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo is ready for this, and we as a movement stand behind him. As had been announced, we as a movement will take the solution and approach that Rêber Apo will develop as a basis for any step we take. We are a movement that will implement the instructions and perspectives of Rêber Apo.

The problem lays with the Turkish state, which is yet again after another of its games. By trying to deceive the Kurdish people, it hopes to get itself out of this difficult phase with little damage. This is the entire calculus of this government. For them, it is not about the democratic solution of the Kurdish question and not about the democratization of Turkey. It isn’t interested in the brotherly coexistence of the peoples. All it cares about is its own power and its own survival.

There are serious developments in the region, and they strongly affect Turkey and form a serious challenge for the government. Turkey’s geopolitical and geostrategic position can no longer be marketed as effectively as it used to be. Turkey’s geopolitical position is gradually weakening, and so its general influence is also weakening. The developments in the region and the agreements made create serious new situations for the Turkish state. Now, the government itself is in a great panic. It is in great fear and anxiety of losing its power. It is in search of how to get out of this. And so they try to abuse the influence of Rêber Apo and his movement to their advantage. The Turkish state is trying to surrender the freedom movement. It is trying to break the will of the Kurdish people and surrender the Kurdish people. It is gradually trying to completely neutralize the democratic forces in Turkey and take them over. And is trying to design the opposition in Turkey according to their own needs. It is trying to drive everyone into the service of its own power. Therefore, it is conducting such intense special warfare.

Our people should not fall for these games. No inappropriate and unrealistic expectations should arise among our people and in democratic public opinion. One must be aware that this government is after a game. It is after deception and deceit. It is trying to break and neutralize the resistance and will of the people. In this respect, there should be no relaxation, no weakening, especially regarding the global freedom campaign. The global freedom campaign must continue to grow bigger and stronger. Today, if the state has been forced to let Omer Ocalan meet with Rêber Apo, if it has created a very limited and partial relaxation in this regard, it is because it has resorted to tactical maneuvers in order to get out of this situation.

The influence of the global freedom campaign is very crucial in this regard. The resistance developed by our people, of the guerrilla, of the women, and of the youth has a huge impact. All this resistance, all this struggle, hence the level of the campaign, have brought about such a situation that they were forced to a tactical maneuver. The global freedom campaign must grow even stronger. Social resistance must develop and grow everywhere.

On November 16th, a big rally is going to take place in Cologne. Young and old must participate in this extremely meaningful march. From the beginning of the month until the 16th, there need to be strong and meaningful actions in the four parts of Kurdistan, and the diaspora also needs to strongly mobilize. In itself, however, this does not only apply to the current phase. We are in an extraordinary situation. A genocidal war is being waged against the Kurdish people, against the peoples. Very historical developments are taking place. We are going through a fate-determining process for our people and for the peoples of the Middle East. So constant action and mobilization are necessary. This should not be limited to the march in Cologne. But of course our people, together with their international friends, in Europe must show a strong will there as well. But this must continue in the form of a serhildan3 both in the four parts of Kurdistan and outside the country. And this must be pioneered by the women and the youth. They must lead this mobilization strongly and continuously until concrete results are achieved, until Rêber Apo’s health, security, and physical freedom are ensured. As a matter of fact, when Rêber Apo attains his physical freedom, the Kurdish question will be solved democratically, Turkey will be democratized, democracy will spread to the region, and the peoples will be liberated. The key is the physical freedom of Rêber Apo.

Therefore, the global freedom campaign has such historical meaning and importance. It needs to be carried out and strengthened in every regard. The social, legal, political, diplomatic, and ideological resistance must continue with all its strength. And concrete results must be achieved. The level reached by the campaign has proved that if this struggle is continued vigorously, exponentially, the physical freedom of Rêber Apo will be ensured. We will realize the democratic solution to the Kurdish question. We can ensure the democratization of Turkey and the democratization of the region. There is already more than enough ground for this. The signs of this have also emerged. With this hope, belief, and excitement, and motivated by the beautiful greeting received from Rêber Apo, the campaign must be continued strongly. Based on this, I sent my greetings with great respect, love, and longing to Rêber Apo.

To have a closer look at the discussions in Turkey about the possible start of a new solution process. How do you assess this in view of the developments of the last few days?

There is no solution process, as they say. There is no will in this state for a solution in the current situation. There is no change in its mentality. There is no change in the century-old policy of denial and annihilation. On the contrary, the current state mentality and the AKP-MHP government aim to finalize and complete the century-old Kurdish genocide policies by mobilizing all its means. This is very clear and something they admitted themselves. There is no will for a solution on the part of this state, this government, and this ruling power. What exists are the ongoing genocide policies. There are a thousand and one special war methods and games developed to bring these genocide policies to a conclusion. This is how this process needs to be evaluated, understood, and grasped. There is a very intense special war. In the frame of this special warfare, many games and tactical maneuvers take place. I mean, one can’t even say that there is a change of discourse; there is literally no change. There are just games and special warfare.

But still, one needs to question why these discourses developed lately. These discourses need to be read and evaluated together with the developments in the region. The region is going through a very serious process. The borders are changing in the region, and new maps are being drawn. A different situation gradually emerges in the region. In other words, the region is currently being redesigned on the basis of Israel’s interests, on the basis of guaranteeing its security. Therefore, Israel is being provided with all kinds of means and support. Israel is currently waging a massive imperialist war in the region. In the same way NATO offers all kinds of support to the Turkish state, the US offers all kinds of support. The Turkish state is conducting a similar policy in the region under the name of neo-Ottomanism; an expansionist, occupying, and imperial policy. Israel and the Turkish state are conducting a similar policy in the region and therefore are in very serious competition.

Each state is trying to establish its hegemony over the region with the support of NATO, America, and Britain. And now the situation is this, that the Greater Middle East Project, which is being developed under the leadership of Israel with the support of Israel, America, Britain, and generally the West, and the concept developed for the region, currently excludes Turkey at many points. Many new energy and trade agreements have been made. Turkey has been left out of most of the agreements and equations developed in many regions, from India to the Mediterranean to Europe. Turkey is extremely worried about this development. It is experiencing great fear and anxiety. Because the policy and strategy currently being implemented in the region brings with it the shrinking of nation-states in the region. The ongoing discourses should be evaluated in relation to these developments. The Turkish state is trying to get out of this difficult situation, this impasse, with as little damage as possible by deceiving the Kurds, by neutralizing their struggle, by neutralizing the opposition in Turkey, and by aligning everyone with the government. It is trying to save itself. And the government wants to do this through special warfare, deception, and subterfuge. But it couldn’t keep this up for very long. The TUSAŞ attack unmasked this immediately. It revealed their true face. The TUSAŞ attack revealed how false these discourses were, how such a horrible genocide plan was trying to be carried out in a more violent way, and how it wanted to develop it. It revealed the true face of the AKP-MHP government.

How did they react to the TUSAŞ attack? Without any research or investigation, they immediately claimed that those who carried out the action had come from northern Syria and used it directly as a pretext. Their language is fake, and their mentality is genocidal. There is obviously no change. There are just their games, tactical maneuvers, and their special warfare. Already on the same night of the TUSAŞ attack, they bombarded the entire infrastructure and all the service centers of the people in North and East Syria. In the course of their prepared attack, they bombarded the peoples of North and East Syria everywhere and launched a horrible genocidal attack. And they developed the same intensity of an attack on the Medya Defense Zones. And then, immediately afterwards they appointed the trustees. This shows clearly how false the rhetoric of this government is – that it is a deception. It immediately deflated the mood of those who had been listening to this, who had wondered whether there was really a solution process, whether a step would be taken, whether something would happen. All this happened in such a short period of time. It is a game played by the state. If there was a real will for a solution, would it be possible for all this to happen, particularly in such a short period of time? No one must fall for their games.

Right now, the whole aim and goal of this state, this government is to bring the genocidal policies aimed at the Kurdish people to a conclusion. That is why they are carrying out relentless genocidal attacks everywhere and will continue to do so. It will persistently continue this.

As long as the government does not give up its policies of denial-annihilation, as long as it does not give up its genocidal policies, this trustee policy will not end; it will continue. When the trustee was appointed to Shevshek the other day, we said that this would spread to Kurdistan as well. And it did. We knew it because we knew the mentality of this state and this government. It comes one after the other. The other morning, they appointed trustees in Merdin. Elih and Xelfeti. They will gradually appoint trustees to other municipalities as well. In Turkey, they will gradually appoint trustees also to the Istanbul municipality. Gradually, they will appoint trustees to every place where democrats have been elected.

They are conducting a genocidal policy. Turkey is currently being ruled by a fascist dictator. The opposition did not want to see this. All kinds of lawlessness, injustice, persecution, oppression, and even torture against Kurds were seen as normal. Everyone turned a blind eye to these. Now they are gradually turning against them too. As they say, those who are the most silent will be the next in line. And they were very silent. This will not be limited to Kurdistan and Shevshek. It will gradually spread to Istanbul and Izmir as well. It will reach everywhere. Wherever dissent is heard, trustees will be appointed. Those who criticize will be locked up. Particularly for this reason, they had prepared the so-called law against espionage. They will lock up anyone who makes the slightest criticism, raises a voice, or objects. They will say they are associated with terrorism and that they are a threat to Turkey’s survival. This is how they try to crush all opposition. This is a reality that we have been pointing the finger at for years. If there is injustice and lawlessness and you don’t speak out against it, it will some day come back on you. When decay starts, when morality and conscience disappear, and you do nothing about it, then one day it will fall on your feet. What is the origin of all this? The torture and isolation system of Imrali. A horrible lawlessness takes place there. It started there, spread to all of Kurdistan, and now it is spreading to Turkey. There has not been a single voice from the opposition against the isolation until now. No one has put forward a reaction. If you don’t speak out against the system of torture and isolation in Imrali, if you don’t take a stance against the lawlessness and injustice there, you cannot prevent the lawlessness and injustice in Turkey. This will come to Istanbul and to Izmir as well. It will come to the CHP’s doorstep as well. Who knows, maybe tomorrow they will say that the CHP is affiliated with terrorism and will seal the CHP party office. Maybe they will arrest Ozgur Ozel, they will arrest Imamoglu. If you don’t take a stance, you won’t be able to prevent this.

We reached a point where everyone, including the fascists Bahceli and Erdogan, the government, and the opposition, admit that there is isolation in Imrali. They confessed what kind of crime against humanity they commit. Because that is what isolation is – a crime against humanity. Now they all admit that they have been committing a crime in Imrali for 26 years. To confess isolation is to confess that they are committing a crime against humanity.

There are nationalist, chauvinist circles in the CHP that do not even want to mention the word isolation. They are living such a nightmare. They want to prevent that the conditions of Rêber Apo change, that the so-called right to hope is discussed, and that Turkish law is applied. They want to prevent Rêber Apo from being taken as an interlocutor. They are playing games, trying to find others to be taken as interlocutors, and generally searching to prevent the solution of the Kurdish question. They say that the representative of millions, the representative of the will of a people, should not be seen as an interlocutor. What a poisonous mentality and language is that? What kind of Kurdish enmity is this? Opposing Rêber Apo means opposing the Kurdish people. Enmity against Rêber Apo is enmity against the Kurdish people. Whoever has such an approach towards Rêber Apo has a wrong approach towards the Kurdish people. Rêber Apo represents the will of the Kurds. He is their leader. He is the interlocutor for the democratic solution of the Kurdish question. Opposition and hostility towards Rêber Apo is hostility towards the Kurdish people.

At the moment, there are some circles within the CHP who are called leftists, some say they are social democrats, some say they are patriots, and things alike, but live enmity to Rêber Apo. They live in Kurdish enmity. No solution can emerge from such people.

Recently, the CHP has given some positive statements. It has been admitting that there is a Kurdish question. When Devlet Bahceli said that there is no Kurdish problem but a terror problem, Ozgur Ozel objected to this and pointed out that indeed there is a Kurdish problem. Devlet Bahceli denies the existence of a Kurdish question, and so does Erdogan. Ok, so there is no Kurdish problem in Turkey, but a ‘terror problem’, but why does this ‘terror problem’ exist? Where did this ‘terror problem’, as you call it, come from? Where did it come from? If there was no Kurdish question, the PKK would not have emerged. Now they call all Kurds who struggle for freedom terrorists. They call all Kurds who demand rights and law terrorists. All Kurds have been declared terrorists by this state. It calls all Kurds who want freedom, who want an honorable life, who want to share a common life with the Turkish people, who want to live together democratically, terrorists.

Now the CHP also objected to this, saying there is a Kurdish problem and that they would solve it. Good; one needs to applaud this approach. But the Kurdish people are fed up with this rhetoric. This is not new. All past governments have at some point said that there is a Kurdish problem. Even Erdogan did so back then when it suited him. When it no longer suited him, he started to deny it again. When it suited him, he said the path to the solution of the Kurdish problem passes through Amed (tr. Diyarbakir); when it didn’t, he said there was no Kurdish problem if you don’t think about it. Erbakan from his predecessors also said this, as did Ozal and Mesut Yilmaz. Saying it, putting it into a program with a few sentences… That period is over. This has expired. Now the Kurdish question imposes itself with all its urgency. The solution imposes itself. The democratic solution to the Kurdish question in Turkey is imposing itself with all its urgency. But the question cannot be solved with the current discourse. The CHP has to put forward a program for the solution of the Kurdish question. It has to put forward a road map for the solution of the Kurdish question. Accordingly, they will have to hold rallies everywhere and organize meetings with the Kurdish people. They will have to talk with the Kurdish people, with civil society organizations, with workers and laborers, and all the interlocutors of the Kurdish people, and listen to their demands. And first and foremost, they have to go to Imrali and take Rêber Apo as interlocutor. There is no way around this. The interlocutor is Rêber Apo. If the CHP is sincere on this issue, then it will have to be brave. If it is sincere, it will have to put forward its will. If it is sincere, it will have to take practical steps. If it is sincere, it will have to back up this promise. Against all kinds of pressure, all kinds of attacks, all kinds of blackmail, it will have to put forward a strong will for a solution and make it count. For example, if there had been serious social resistance in response to the appointment of a trustee in Shevshek, including from the CHP, then it could have become the leading party in Turkey again.

The CHP has taken 70 percent of the municipalities across Turkey. In fact, the CHP is currently governing Turkey at the local level. All the metropolitan cities of Turkey, the industry, the economy, and all sources of income are in the hands of the CHP. The CHP governs the intellectual world, that is, all the social circles that we can call intellectuals, or modern as they call them. Now, when the trustee was appointed in Shevshek, if the CHP had mobilized all its grassroots, if it had mobilized the people, if it had taken to the streets, Ahmet Ozer would have persisted in charge of the municipality. But the CHP did not put forward a serious will. Their resistance remained in words again. It made statements, held meetings, and made objections as if there is a judiciary, justice, and law in Turkey. There is no judiciary; there is no law. What law are you talking about? Is there the state you think there is? That state has collapsed. The institutions of the state have been liquidated. The CHP is deceiving itself. It is trying to deceive society. It is not putting forward anything serious. For example, if it had conducted effective politics, if it had mobilized millions of people behind it, if it had taken to the streets everywhere, would this situation have happened? It would not have happened. Now they have appointed trustees in Kurdistan. They will appoint municipal trustees like this everywhere.

What is the appropriate thing to do now? The thing to do is for the whole society, regardless of young or old, to take to the streets. A strong social resistance must emerge. Politics must be conducted through this social resistance. The opposition must take the social resistance behind them. This is what will change the situation. Otherwise, it will not stop until the opposition is completely eliminated. With this, they are also sending a message to Istanbul. They want to close the political space of Kurds in Turkey, prevent democratic politics from spreading in Turkey, and prevent the unification of the Kurdish and Turkish peoples. The fascist Erdogan talks about Kurdish-Turkish unity and brotherhood, but this is all demagoguery. He speaks into the void. They have a terrible fear of the unity, common struggle, and alliance between Kurds and Turks. They are afraid of it.

So what is the thing to do now? To resist strongly in Kurdistan, Turkey, and everywhere. Hundreds of thousands, millions of people must stand up and resist. This is the only way democratic politics and the opposition can achieve results. Otherwise, if they don’t do this, they will be neutralized. Moreover, our people have that will. It put forward a very strong stance from the very first moment. It must continue this. Hundreds of thousands, millions, should be in a continuous struggle. They must protect their will. They must protect their votes.

The Turkish State is applying colonial law in Kurdistan. It has abolished the right to be elected and to elect. It recognizes neither the elected nor the votes of the Kurdish people. It has actually deprived the Kurdish people of their citizenship. It is applying a law of genocide. Everything to be done against this is total resistance. It is necessary to wage a strong social and political struggle and, through this, achieve results.